From Mr. President’s February 5, 2009, Washington Post editorial:
By now, it’s clear to everyone that we have inherited an economic crisis as deep and dire as any since the days of the Great Depression. Millions of jobs that Americans relied on just a year ago are gone; millions more of the nest eggs families worked so hard to build have vanished. People everywhere are worried about what tomorrow will bring…
Because each day we wait to begin the work of turning our economy around, more people lose their jobs, their savings and their homes. And if nothing is done, this recession might linger for years. Our economy will lose 5 million more jobs. Unemployment will approach double digits. Our nation will sink deeper into a crisis that, at some point, we may not be able to reverse.
Which sent shockwaves throughout bread lines, soup kitchens, and Hoovervilles across the nation.
Yesterday, Obama issued this followup statement to a bunch of greedy corporate fatcats at a meeting of the Business Roundtable:
Confronting misgivings, even in his own party, President Barack Obama mounted a stout defense of his blueprint to overhaul the economy Thursday, declaring the national crisis is “not as bad as we think” and his plans will speed recovery.
Challenged to provide encouragement as the nation’s “confidence builder in chief,” Obama said Americans shouldn’t be whipsawed by bursts of either bad or good news and he was “highly optimistic” about the long term…
“A smidgen of good news and suddenly everything is doing great. A little bit of bad news and ooohh , we’re down on the dumps,” Obama said. “And I am obviously an object of this constantly varying assessment. I am the object in chief of this varying assessment.”
“I don’t think things are ever as good as they say, or ever as bad as they say,” Obama added. “Things two years ago were not as good as we thought because there were a lot of underlying weaknesses in the economy. They’re not as bad as we think they are now.”
I know I speak for all Americans when I applaud March 12th President Obama for standing up to the politics of fear that have been cynically employed by February 5th President Obama. It’s time for 2/5 Obama to stop manipulating people’s emotions, just to try to make things harder for 3/12 Obama. In this time of crisis that isn’t actually that much of a crisis, Late-Winter O needs to learn how to work together with Early-Spring O. Americans didn’t vote for 2/5ths of success.
We are the ones we’ve been self-negating for.
(Hat tip to reader Fred Savage, who you may remember from TV’s Small Wonder)
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He’s turned out to be a world class hypocrite, isn’t he?
And as the world falls deeper into economic crisis, he enjoys private concerts at the White House with Earth, Wind and Fire and Stevie Wonder. I’m glad I moved to England.
As a former avid fan of Small Wonder, I believe you mean The Wonder Years.
ROFLMBO………perfect example of a pol talking out of both sides of his/her mouth.
Dude.
Did I just totally explain the joke? I suck today.
Yeah, it’s ABOUT TIME we stopped reacting in panic and fear to the predictions of gloom and death and starvation. Those predictions whipped gleefully into life by our object-in-chief. And as the guy who’s most likely to plunder our “nest eggs”, how thoughtful of him to pontificate about how fearful we are of being de-egged. MAN, I hate that guy.
Say what you want about President Bush, but every time he opened his mouth in front of a camera, my stock portfolio didn’t get kicked in the nuts. Somehow that leads me to believe that Bush isn’t quite as much at fault for this as the new Administration wants us to think.
This is the same douche who wants to provide Americans with Universal Healthcare, but wants wounded soldiers to use their PRIVATE INSURANCE. “Hey, thanks for taking a bullet for your country, now if you wouldn’t mind just picking up the bill.” Could you imagine the response if Bush had suggested that? Or if Condi Rice had made a comment about ‘not wasting a perfectly good crisis’.
The double standard is only getting worse, luckily, most of America seems to be picking up on it pretty quickly.
I saw a headline today about Michelle Obama’s “distress” at the plight of military families. Can’t help feeling that this distress is every bit as ersatz as most of Pamela Anderson. If anyone on Obama’s team told me that the sky was blue, I’d want documentation. Bastards.
I, as one American, applaud 3-12 Obama for infusing the markets with a jolt of confidence that the obstructionist, fearmongering 2-8 Obama told us couldn’t happen.
Well played, 3-12 Obama.
Well I wish 3/12 Obama would do SOMETHING. I can’t keep lighting these giant cigars with $100s forever. I might have to switch to $50s. Yeah right that’ll be the day.
Michelle’s distressed at the plight of military families? I thought she was distressed by having to take time out of her busy arm-toning schedule to be photographed pretending to care about the un-Ivy-League-educated trash married to un-Ivy-League-educated professional babykillers.
You know, Heather, that may have been it. Making official frowny faces probably cut into her jawbone-polishing afternoon.
Pasta is the epic win of all time, IMHO, for making me realize what Michelle Obama really is: a Klingon. Well done! I know it’s delayed, but I thought it was worth recognizing since I now cite that daily.
In other news, I’m really looking forward to the 6/17 Obama. C’mon, who’s with me? I REALLY think that the Hope and Change will be coming in with that guy. I’m *banking* on it.
3/12 Obama is supposed to be a great speaker? That was the most convoluted thing ever — probably because he doesn’t believe it.
As funny as it truly is, this is getting painful to watch the country go down the tubes while so many idiots are in charge. At least Clinton was a master at manipulation.
Can’t you see President Obama is right? (It’s easy to say that when he takes both sides of the issue.)
“I applaud March 12th President Obama for standing up to the politics of fear that have been cynically employed by February 5th President Obama.”
Comedy GOLD.
Thank for the laugh, at two (or are there more) Obama, and the tears, for our country.
Come on, guys, don’t you realize that the whole foundation of his campaign was CHANGE? Change you can believe in! What, you didn’t realize that meant every time he got in front of a camera that what came out of his mouth would change?
But we shouldn’t be so hard on President Obama. After all, he DID bring change to this country…I’ve had to change from heating my house to NOT heating it, and change from grocery shopping to NOT grocery shopping, and my husband had to change from one pay level to a lower one just to keep his job.
Change…what’s left in my wallet. Anybody got any odd jobs they want done? Will blog for food…
If it’s not so bad then I want my money back Barak
I wonder if people are starting to realise the chosen one is not the one that was chosen.
What’s the alternative? John McCain would be babbling about trickle down economics and Sarah’s stimulus package would include a natural gas pipeline to no where. Considering the lesser of two evils, I’ll go with Obama.
“What’s the alternative?”
Well, it’s pretty hard to imagine a McCain/Palin White House signing off on the porkulous bill. That alone would be enough to encourage most Americans according to the most recent polls that show Obama has already fallen below where Bush was approval ratings wise at the same time in his Presidency. I might point out that Bush lost the popular vote in the first election, while Obama won by a significant margin, and he’s ALREADY squandered his support with a level of incompetence even his former supporters can’t fathom.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123690358175013837.html
You think former soldier McCain would be telling wounded vets to pay for their own medical care? Or that China would be ramming our ships in Southeast Asia? Or the Russians preparing to deploy strategic bombers to Venezuela and Cuba? Or North Korea launching test missiles? Or Iran declaring itself a “Space and Nuclear Power”?
I guess it’s just a coincidence that ALL our enemies waited until Bush was out and Obama was in before pulling this crap? I thought Obama was supposed to heal all the foreign policy ills the horrible Bush left for us? All I see is enemies taking advantage of weakness – which is exactly what you should expect to happen when you put a dithering bureaucrat in charge of the military of the most powerful nation in the world.
Dang. If I could vote you some rep points or something, I would, Scott.
Hey, he’s exactly right on the economy; and dead wrong. Everyone wins.
At least he doesn’t do this all the time… on Embryonic stem cells he signed an Executive order to remove the federal funding ban; and signed the budget two days later that put the ban back.
Um… that might not be the best example. He’s decided to end the terminology use of “enemy combatant” while keeping the meaning and description?
He’s completely against having lobbyists in his Administration; and then signed over a dozen “exemptions” to give those jobs to lobbyists?
He believes there shouldn’t be one set of laws for “the people” and another for the ruling class; and then hires tax cheats left and right (for doing things I’d go to jail for)?
Ok fine, I can’t find a good example of a position he has help definitively. Sure I could say “wild spending sprees” but…
“Barack Obama will restore fiscal discipline to Washington” Who would say something that foolish? “Reinstate PAYGO Rules” … someone thought he’d do that? Who is that idiotic?
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/fiscal/
Of course, Barack Obama.
Scott F, you got my vote.
Once again, Scott, you wipe the floor clean of absurdity.
At least McCain wouldn’t be killing the market attempting to pretend trickle up economics works. Good gosh.
Yeah, I’d love to see them try to sneak earmarks past McCain. Damn him for picking the religious right for his running mate!
Fiscal responsibility. That’s what is needed now more than ever, and we have the worst possible people in power.
They are burning our money. Burning it.
And if they think the big sheep are going to stand still while they get fleeced, they haven’t read history.
First of all – this is up to Americans to stand up and fight for what is correct – and true now. To Jason…. I do not think McCain would have allowed what is going on now…. but PLEASE…….excuse me………..religious right!!! Sarah Palin is not afraid to stand on VALUES & ALSO runs a great state! This country USA needs to stand on those Values and a God that this Country was developed on… and a Constitution to stand up for what is right! So do not blame Sarah Palin…. blame those who NEVER before voted before and who knows… if they even know what is going on today….. were paid by ACORN – and the likes of them to get this man in office.
Wake up America … and stand for what is true and right… and we will rise above ( but not if you do not get back to the principles and values of this country )
Diamondgal, nice sentiment, but you lost me with the God thing. While I am not a liberal (or conservative for that matter, though I lean that way on many issues), I am an atheist, and the idea of an official Christian state will guarantee that I remain in England and never even return home for a visit.
Furthermore, it’s not what the USA is about. It’s about freedom of religion and freedom from religion, as well as separation of church and state.
Confused about how the “Church of America” would be different than the Churchf of England… I don’t think Diamondgal was saying we need to turn American into a Christian state, simply that bringing back some of the values wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing (you know, the concept of right and wrong that seems to automatically get you labled the “reglious right” anymore). Because we can see no rules, just right has gotten us so far.
Kristine, I should have clarified my point, and will do so now.
Having lived in England for the past three years, I have noticed that the Church of England has little bearing on politics, or individual life in general. They tend to loudly pound their chests when they don’t like something, but then shut up and go back to preaching to those people that care about what they say.
However, having grown up in Bible Belt America, where I was raised Catholic, I was constantly subjected to discrimination. Even more so as an atheist when I did abandon religion altogether. I’m not the type of person that goes around trying to convince people to leave their own religions, yet in the States, everyone wanted me to join theirs and when it was let slip at the workplace that I am an atheist, I was threatened physically, had my truck keyed, and had one person attempt to convert me on a daily basis. When I got fed up, several months later and complained to upper management, I was told that I should never have stated my position on religion. I emphasize here that I never made an issue of it, could care less if someone says “Merry Christmas”, and have no issue with people believing what they wish.
When those people single me out as immoral or amoral because of my lack of religion, or when they try to put religion into government policy or say that I have to pray in a public school, I do take offense. It is also a big mistake, as well as an insult to every atheist, pagan, Jew, and navel worshipper in America to assume that values equate to Christianity. Furthermore, the founding fathers, for the most part, were deists and atheists, though many of them, for fear of being ostracized, joined congregations. They were out to create a government that did not force religion on others through any means because they had in fact, just escaped such a government in Europe.
So, in short, Values/Morality do not equal Christianity or any specific faith or non faith. When people confuse the two, as Diamondgal did, they are merely pushing for a government that is no different than the Middle Eastern governments we criticize, the only difference being the faith they push.
Chronic – this is one of the very few areas we’ll have to agree to disagree. I don’t support the government endorsing one religion over another, or forcing/penalizing people due to their religious preferences. I also don’t believe your average Christian, Jew, ect. is any more moral than their atheist counterpart. I do however understand the unease that many Americans feel around atheists.
Keep in mind I’m referring to intelligent, educated Americans, not people who will key your car because ‘that’s what Jesus would do’. Those people can’t even understand the tenants of the religion they want to persecute you for not following (turning the other cheek, loving the sinner, hating the sin, ect.) let alone the principles on which our country was founded. You can be American without religion, but I find it hard to understand how you can be American without God.
If you read the works of the Founding Fathers, and those who came before (specifically Locke) then you’ll see that the primary difference between our nation and most of Europe at the time was the ‘progression of rights’. In Monarchies, God gave rights to the Sovereign who then delegated them to the masses as he saw fit. In America, God gave those rights to people, who then delegated some of them to the Government in order to have a functioning society.
If you take God out of the equation, then those rights begin and end with Man alone. The problem with rights given by men is that they can be taken away by men, generally government men with guns. Rights given us by God are immutable and unchanging. Time and time again the Founders pointed out that they were not ‘giving’ rights to the people of America. These rights had ALWAYS existed, we simply hadn’t been willing to grasp them for ourselves.
I admit that the idea of a bunch of people worshiping a divine being without thought or question scares the crap out of me. Almost as much as the idea of a bunch of people worshiping their leaders without thought or question scares me, which is really the only other alternative.
Scott F. I do see what you are saying, but yep, we’ll need to agree to disagree. God is in the equation put forth by the founding fathers for two reasons. Yes, some did believe in a higher power and felt that our unalienable rights were god given. However, others, seeing the progression of rights as something very human, agreed to include a mention of god in order to get some of those great documents we hold dear ratified. I promise you this is not revisionist history, but rather, a close look at those men beyond history books and what was driving them.
God can be a very generic word, and to me, it always has been because even growing up in a strict Catholic household, I questioned far too much and never bought into what I was taught. This is not about me, however. I feel strongly that god does not need to be a part of this equation when nature itself demands that you respect it, and we are a part of that nature. You know I’m not saying this from a treehugger, hippie perspective, too, I hope. The rights and freedoms and respect for our fellow man must exist because we are all human and we are obligated to look after our own due to the very fact that we are all human and a part of humanity. Not doing so by committing atrocities, stepping on the rights of others, etc… is not right just as … ugh, I can only think of the cheesiest comparisons now, so let me move on.
Those rights are being taken from people in America. I’m not holding a grudge against the idiots I worked with, or painting all Christians with the same brush. I know better. I still sit down to Christmas dinner with the folks. I just stay behind when they go to church. Most people I know respect that I am an atheist and don’t judge me based on that knowledge, and vice versa. In England, people are far cooler about it and I don’t have to lie about it until I know the person better. However, those nasty people are out there, they vote, and they are frightening. So when someone implies that morality can only be achieved through their Christian god, it truly makes my skin crawl because in my experience,those key the truck for Jesus types have a way of riling up the more sensible and freaking them out to the point where some will be willing to step on the toes of others. The alleged war on Christmas is a perfect example of this. There is a lot of scaremongering going on every December that seeps its way into sensible minds. So, when god enters American policy (the gay marriage debate is not one I will get into here, but will cite, because the only reason for anyone to be against it is religion or homophobia as far as I am concerned, neither of which should have a say in the matter), it is worrying. When people claim that getting back to values means getting back to god, I cringe, especially when I speak for myself in saying that I am a much better, more balanced, and happier person without god, as are the handful of atheists that I know. Christian groups demonize atheists, drive them out of small town America, and no one credible (I hate the ACLU, can you tell, but that’s all we’ve got) helps us stand up for ourselves. And that’s the attitude that drives it – religious scaremongering and deciding that a nation that includes a freedom to worship as one wishes in its most important document should be accountable to a deity.
Hope I made sense. I’ve had a migraine all week. Blech.
“Right” and “Wrong” existed before Christianity. The Bible may speak to it (vaguely, I might add, and with serious contradictions) but so did Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. You can arrive at right and wrong by logic, and by observational common sense.
It’s wrong to believe atheists aren’t moral simply because they don’t fear divine retribution.
I don’t steal from people for several reasons, but chief among them is I don’t want to be stolen from. I don’t hit people because it hurts, and I don’t want to be hurt. It’s the golden rule, which is simply common sense that has somehow been attributed to the Christian faith.
As far as the Founding Fathers / Christian Nation / Deist arguments, the Founding Fathers were smarter than all of us. Their religion was irrelevant, and they knew it.
They KNEW religious people would try to establish God’s law over man’s law. Leaders and citizens both. They KNEW. They knew so certainly that they talked about it, wrote to each other about it, and wrote a clause into the Constitution! They were well aware of the danger.
Religion doesn’t hold the monopoly on morals, values and ethics. I think most Christians neither understand nor believe that.
I agree with Chronic. I never understood religion’s bearing on politics in the US. We are not some religious state…are we?
Also, I am appalled by religious intolerance. Chronic, I’m so sorry you had to go through that. Threatening someone or damaging their property because of religious beliefs, how dare they? Religious freedom is guaranteed by the constitution and it’s not anyone’s business what you believe or don’t believe in.
I am just stunned…I have never encountered anything like that myself, but, to be fair, I have never lived anywhere in America except NY and Newark where no one gives a flying f*** if you worship God or a golden calf. However, I have recently moved to a small suburban jersey town where everyone is about their “traditional values and beliefs” and where, if you don’t adorn your house with tacky drugstore decorations every religious holiday, you are considered “strange”.
So, yeah…these small town loonies can drive anyone nuts. I haven’t experienced any religious tensions yet (I refer to myself as “mildly religious”. My parents were Christians turned atheists and I was free to decide for myself which religion to practice. I chose Catholicism. But I don’t go to church and I only remember that I chose to be a Catholic when holidays arrive.) but no one has ever tried to make me feel bad about being an unmarried mother until I moved here. Since I have moved here I have endured disdain from pretty much everyone who knew about my situation – most of my neighbours, people at the daycare center, even my daughter’s pediatrician. The fact that I’m also younger than most suburban mothers (I had my daughter at 21) doesn’t help either. Most moms here are in their 40’s…not that there’s anything wrong with that, but I wish they wouldn’t snub me every time I take my daughter to the playground. It’s amazing how narrow-minded some people can be. Once I had to go to the ER and I had no insurance, so while I was waiting for the doctor the social worker came in to tell me that I might qualify for some sort of a charity care that they had. He started asking me the usual questions about employment and family situation, so I said I was an unmarried mother. He then (and I’m not making this up) patted me on the back and said “Awww, it’s alright”. I was pissed beyond belief. It’s not like I was apologizing for it, I was just answering the question. Apparently, most people here feel like you should be apologizing for forgoing one of their “traditional values” – marriage.
I wonder what happens when my daughter goes to school…I’ve been seriously thinking about moving back to NYC…even though we live in a much safer quieter neighbourhood than NY, and I thought (until recently) that it’s better suited for raising a child than NY. As far as religion is concerned, I am now worried about that. My daughter’s upbringing has been anything but religious in any way – she wasn’t baptised, we don’t go to church, I don’t have any religious books at home…I barely even mention God or religion to her. I decorate the house every X-mas and tell her that it’s baby Jesus’ b-day…but that’s about it. Now I’m worried how other children (and their parents) at her school might take it. And I shouldn’t have to worry about that. Religion is supposed to be a private matter. Not something that other people should feel entitled to stick their noses in and definitely not something endorsed and enforced by the gov’t.
Chronic, you made perfect sense. I’m not sure if I did – I’ve been being hit on the back by a bored 4-yr old the entire time. Kinda made it hard to concentrate. Sorry about your migraine, hope you feel better.
I think JasonM and Nati hit upon what I was trying to say spendidly. JasonM, that’s exactly where I was going with the morality argument but I tend to get sidetracked, longwinded, and off on tangents. But yeah, in a country where its very Constitution states that you have freedom of religion, a government influenced in any way by religion is inherently hypocritical.
Nati, I’m sorry YOU’ve had to deal with that sort of BS. I left that job, but it’s harder to leave a home, and I really don’t know what to even tell you because it’s a difficult position to be in, especially when you have a kid. On one hand, you can live somewhere that people aren’t judging you or your child, but on the other, that place where you have the judgmental BS to deal with is probably a nicer place to grow up.
I am not bashing the States. I will probably live in Europe for the rest of my life, and I love it here, but I didn’t leave because I didn’t like living in America. I’m proud of where I am from and grateful that my grandparents were allowed to make their homes there when they fled Cuba. I left because my husband is British and moving here when we married was the best choice for us on several levels. However, I do think that the US has a long way to go in reconciling religion and government, especially in a time when the religious are attempting to inject their beliefs into policy, and people who support that idea are getting elected into office. This is a huge problem I see in America, and it goes beyond my personal experiences. There are people who have had to deal with worse just for having a different faith, or no faith at all.
I’m not one of those people that introduces herself as, “Hey, I’m Chronic Malanga and I am an atheist so shut the hell up about Easter.” I respect other people’s beliefs. As Nati said, it is a private matter, and no one should preach or hold themselves up as somehow better, more noble or more moral because they are part of this or that faith.
But let me stop before I really stop making sense. I’m glad I made some sort of sense here, though.
Oh this is just like the discussion in college when we stepped into the UN’s UDoHR. Lovely and interesting.
On topic- Is Jon Favreau still speech writing for Obama? I’ve noticed that Obama is very dependent on his telepompter speeches and I was just wondering if he’s got an official team now or the lone 27-ish soldier? I figured if he had a team, someone would be keeping track of what’s being said and making fact-check style changes accordingly for future speeches/dialogs.
Just something I had been pondering since my Maserati is an ancient two years old and I’m considering where to spend the next part of my children’s college funds as the “toxic recession” trudges on.
I would like to point out really quick that I did specifically say that the religious were not any more moral than an agnostic or atheist. If that’s what anyone got from my post, you either missed my point, or I failed to make it clear enough. I disagree wholeheartedly that the term God was injected into our documents to appease the religious masses. This isn’t because I believe this is a ‘Christian Nation’ or any other reason similar to that. It’s because the founders recognized God-given rights as the lesser of two evils.
Your entire slant on religion is one where it’s used to oppress, but the founders saw Divine Rights as a stop-gap AGAINST oppression. Your golden rule analogy is great on a small scale, but to base a society around that weak a moral principle is to invite disaster. If your rights don’t come from God, where do they originate? The government? Scholars? Humanity as a whole?
Here’s the problem with any of those – they’re all dependent on PEOPLE. Lets face it, people suck. Want to see a good person become an evil douche? Give him power over someone else. I remember reading about a study done in the 70’s where a psych department head divided his students into two groups: prisoners and guards. They then created a mock jail in one of the dorms and were going to play it out for two weeks. It lasted barely a week before they had to call it off. These were a bunch of hippie college students from the 70’s, and it was less than a week before the ‘guards’ had gone off the deep end.
Here’s the bottom line: the big invisible man in the sky is never going to descend and tell the populace that their rights are null and void – governments, run by people, do that all the time. Where is it really safer to vest our immutable rights?
I also don’t care for the automatic insinuation that every time an English-speaking person brings up God that they’re referring to the common Christian deity. I use the word God to represent any belief that there is a force beyond man’s own selfish whims – be it Gaia, Buddha, Allah, the space monster from Glarcon VII, ect. from which our rights originate.
You are all right, the Founders were geniuses – so why is it so hard to believe that they meant what they said? John Adams said it best when he said this: “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
Some intelligent back and forth here – but staying in England over the U.S. ?!? England has let itself be hijacked by Islam over weak-kneed immigration policy and hyperactive Political Correctness. I can’t count the number of Brits who want to get the hell out of there – to Oz, Canada or the U.S. – where it hasn’t yet gotten to nearly the breaking point (although up in our dear Canuckistan, the same liberal b.s. that Obama is bringing to the masses has gotten us a huge head start in losing much of what made Canada the best country for so very long). Note: the best, not the greatest – that title still goes to the U.S. – and I am grateful to have such a neighbor, for all they do.
Sad that the useful idiot masses in the States have brought a light-weight, b.s. artist to the pinnacle. I hope that the mania is short-lived – Barack very much has feet of clay.
I’m not denying that the majority of the Fathers believed in God. Endowed by our Creator. Right there in the preamble.
I disagree with your premise that it is anything other than lip service, as a Creator isn’t mentioned anywhere else in the entire document. People have been trying to insert it ever since, but so far it’s withstood the attacks.
As far as where rights come from, I’ll stick with us. After all, God didn’t write the preamble. Men did. The gods kinda have a spotty record on rights.
As far Adams’ quote, I’ll trade you:
“…Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”
@ Chronic
Not to worry, I am not going to let the loons drive me out of town. They haven’t even attempted anything yet…aside from a few judgemental comments and nasty looks. I’m not sure where they stand on religion…I guess we’ll find out when my daughter goes to school. I’m not even sure it will be a big deal or even a problem…this is jersey, after all, not mississippi…or south carolina. But if they do try to force their values on me, I’ll just say “Don’t forget what Karl Marx used to say – religion is the opium of the people” (sometimes translated as “the opium of the masses”). That will win them over for sure – an atheist AND a commie. Or I can just say “Every time you preach, an abortionist kills a fetus”. They will like that…LOL, I couldn’t stay serious for more than 5 minutes, even on such a serious subject as this one. I have a maturity of a 5-yr old.
As for what’s happening to Obama and his approval ratings, it’s the exact same thing that happened to Bush. Both were nearly revered during their presidential campaigns, both seemed to be expected to perform miracles. Then the ratings plummeted. (I was expecting Obama to fall from grace, it was bound to happen, with all those unrealistic expectations people had of him. I also always thought that Obama’s fall from grace was going to be bigger than Bush’s, but I didn’t expect it to start happening so soon…)It looks like Obama now is being bashed by his very supporters…also, the same thing that happened to Bush. Here’s what I don’t get, though…you (not YOU, Obama supporters/Bush supporters) voted for them. So…who’s to blame?
At the office where I used to work, my boss and my coworkers didn’t seem to have any sense of boundaries – they would discuss their personal lives and politics all the time. They were all extremely critical of Bush and his administration. Every day it was “Bush this, Bush that, Bush is f***ing up our country”. They all voted for Bush in 2000. I know because they told me. In 2004, still bashing Bush, they voted for him again. I know because this time I asked them. They went to vote all together, and when they came back I asked them who they voted for (I know, completely innapropriate, totally none of my business, not smth I would normally do, but I just couldn’t help it, I was too curious). They all said “Bush”. They continued bashing him all day every day until the results were announced. When they’d learned that he won the election, all they seemed to be able to say was “Can you beleive it, f***ing Bush won again!” (that’s the actual quote, my bush-bashing-but-always-republican-voting boss had actually said that). I was just speechless…To me, that situation and that quote illustrate the state of mind of our electorate (at least where I live) perfectly. Me, I don’t vote. I didn’t vote this time, I didn’t vote back in 2004…I’m guessing some of you are not going to take this confession too well, but when I look at all the corrupt/inept/inadequate candidates I’m supposed to choose from, not voting at all seems like the most patriotic thing one can do (at least, to me).
Again, JasonM stated it best in terms of the founding fathers. I really can’t add much more to that without pulling books out of my loft and starting to quote some of the founding fathers directly. I have to address Acemeister79.
The PC trend is starting to turn around and bite people in the ass over here in the UK right now. Don’t get me wrong, you have pointed out something very annoying and valid about the UK, but people are tired. People are tired of Gordon Brown and his cronies because it’s not just the weak immigration policies and the pandering to Muslims that people are tired of, but a few other things that are going to result in a mighty death for the current Labour party.
But there is a difference between the Muslim extremist/immigration issues and a general religion issue here,too. Political correctness in the extreme is running rampant in a lot of places, not just in England. We’ve all seen the ridiculous “losing team getting a trophy” crap both here and in the States. But at its core, as an atheist, here in the UK I don’t have to hide the fact that I am in order to have friends, or exist in a non-hostile work environment if I ever chose to work. My lack of belief isn’t automatically offensive or threatening to the people in the small town where I live. People here can have an adult discussion about religion without being judged for it or throwing things at each other. Everyone from the atheist to the Hindu to the Anglican is pissed off about the Muslim extremists and lax immigration policy, though. Immigration has cost me well into the thousands, and I had to jump through hoops to get my Permanent Leave to Remain visa, and when they asked me for more than the thirty pieces of mail I’d already sent in to show that my husband and I were married or I wouldn’t get it, the big joke among our diverse circle of friends was, “Gee, Chronic, if you’d said that you were a Muslim lesbian and your maiden name had been Bin Laden, they’d have offered you citizenship right off the bat.”
So, yeah, it’s hard to explain it, and I don’t know that I have done it well, but in a strange way, I do feel more free in this country where religion is concerned. In the Bible Belt, your neighbors turn on you if you aren’t seen in a Christian church on any given Sunday. Here, no one cares, and I have met more atheists in three years here than I have in 30-some years in the States who are open about it and don’t feel a need to apologize for it. There are pros and cons to life in England, but that one pro makes a huge difference to me. I love America and I love my people, but I fit in over here.
Nati, I hear ya about Obama. Even in England, there was Obama-mania and they were charging at the door in all the pubs to get in and watch the inauguration, I kid you not. But I get the feeling that this guy is going to weaken America and let everyone down. I am not convinced that he isn’t a Socialist. Scott F. had a great post up there somewhere that summed that up pretty well, and yeah, the fact that Venezuela is basically doing what Kennedy dramatically stopped during the Cuban Missle Crisis frightens me. But you’re right, all the candidates on both sides of the pond are self serving jackasses that leave people with little choice. That’s why I have never belonged to a political party.
And Nati, good for you for standing your ground. I hope that any problems you run into make both you and your daughter stronger. It may not end up being a big deal. I hope that it isn’t. I truly fear religious fanatics of any kind, especially when they go out of their way to make other people’s lives miserable like they do in the Bible Belt. Intolerance is an ugly thing.
Gee, Obama flip flopping again? Kerry Version 2 coming right up. The more this guy opens his mouth, the harder our life savings declines. And McCain even said in a recent interview that he would like for Obama to live up to his promises he made on the campaign trail – to decline anything that comes across his desk that has earmarks or pork in it. Well, he just signed a bill (without cameras) that had buttloads of pork in it. where are the jobs? oh yeah, going to the illegals while others are being laid off. And don’t get me started on our wounded vets now having to pay for their insurance while others who choose to not work get free healthcare and insurance. Michele looks like she is sucking on a lemon all the time, even when she “thanked” the military families. I had tears in my eyes when I met George and Laura Bush because they were compassionate. I have yet to see compassion in B’s or M’s eyes.
Okay . . . everybody’s comments are too long and off topic to read, except Scott’s—dude, if you ever run for office, can I be your campaign manager?
Anyway, I already commented on the relavent stuff. Just had to say hi to Scott and tell him I think he’s about the second most reasonable person to ever post on an online forum. Go Scott! (Sorry, Chronic, I can’t even begin to agree with you, but I don’t have the energy to debate. If you want to, just pretend I said what Scott said. But we’re still pals. Right??
)
I am finding it humorous listening to Obama switch his rhetoric, he is sounding more like Bush everyday.
In regards to how McCain would have handled the economy, those who think it would have been different are kidding themselves. The Democratic and Republican parties have shown themselves to be equally corrupt and inept.
As to the actions of our enemies, I agree with ScottF. They are testing Obama because he showed weakness during the campaign. Now he has to talk tough and whip out the big stick or it’s gonna be a long 4 years for him. Iran, North Korea and Russia would never have tried this on McCain because they thought McCain was a crazy old bastard.
@Nati – the women are just worried you one of them big city husband stealers cause you an unmarried hussy! I live in a town with population 360, I say f*@kem’!
I am not trying to create controversy or trample on anyone’s beliefs but why can’t morals be based on what is good for our society instead of a religion or God. In order to function as a group and have all the nice pretty things we enjoy we have to live and work together so thou shall not steal from one another, thou shall not kill, thou shall not cheat on your taxes…etc.
ScottF, I understand you argument about a being greater then ourselves giving us rights but God is a human concept. While I have a desire to see a greater mind in the universe and I can say I believe in a creator it is very possible this creator cares nothing for what he/it has created. We could very well be a by product or an oops. So who exactly gives us these rights? A God we have created or humans?
LOL of course we’re still pals, Habanada!
Man you guys… Where do you find the energy?
My daughter gave me this link. I started reading comments. Everyone seems like fine people.
Didn’t the whole religion thing get started because a commenter offhandedly labed Sarah Palin as religious right wing or something like that. Some people go overboard sometimes, intentionally or not. That’s life. The person sounds like a fine person, and probably didn’t really think about it; it just leaked out. Palin never pressed her religious beliefs on anyone as far as I know. Speaking of traditional values does not automatically mean that you want to press religion on anyone. Mentioning God makes some people crazy. I don’t mean the commenters here, though. There seems to be a kneejerk reation anytime a politician has religious beliefs, and that they suffer backlash discrimination and abuse by those who do not believe even as those same people profess acceptance for everyone! It cannot be denied. Many nonreligious do it, just as they feel ostracized or backlashed against because of their nonreligiosity. Just because a politician does have rel. beliefs does not mean there is no separation of church and state or that they will impose their beliefs on you. Everyone is free not to pray. It is sad that some people are so mean that they are systemactically trying to take away every religious connection or action that is already present. That is nasty.
Someone also said that if you don’t want gay marriage that it must be because of religion or homophobia. It seems to be the same kneejerk reaction against religion or those who might not like homosexual activity. Why must they be labeled with a phobia? To push them into an “exteme” category so they will be intimidated and shut up, probably.
Anyway, it is true that homosexuals do have the same rights as everyone else. They can marry anytime they want, but they choose not to.
With the exception of the year I spent in Asia, I have spent my entire life in the Bible Belt. At no time have I ever seen anyone’s vehicle keyed, or the person himself assaulted, because of a religious issue or debate. (I’m not disputing that it has happened, just that I have never seen it happen.) We currently live in a town with a church famous for its moviemaking enterprise, and I have to tell you that nobody here gets up in anyone else’s face about churchiness or lack of same. They just don’t.
I grew up in and around southern cities and towns with highly-charged racial histories, and never saw a racially-motivated incident, either. All this tells me that reputation doesn’t invariably equal reality. Just my (heavily-earmarked) two cents.
Sorry Chronic but I have to say that if you chose to run from America instead of staying to fight for it then you really don’t have a say anymore in what WE Americans do now. You seem to prefer England, a country I would not live in if you paid me due to their inablity to tell invaders “NO”, so in effect you have embraced a transitional socialist state.
Never try to use political or social examples from England as a basis for deridiing America, we chose not to use their flawed form of government and threw them out. Now we have to do the same to those in Washington that seem to have lost their fear of the common people. A governement should always fear the people for without that fear they are a dictatorship.
Aleric, who says I am deriding America? Secondly, my reasons for moving here have nothing to do with this discussion, a fact I pointed out earlier. Since moving here, I have seen a lot of differences in the religious tolerances of both nations and prefer the way I am treated here. In saying that, I am only pointing out the obvious, having grown up in a place where my beliefs are not necessarily respected. I have not claimed that the government here is somehow stellar or superior. I don’t trust government no matter what country I am in.
I am, and will remain an American citizen. As of right now, I have no intentions of ever returning to America to live, but I am retaining my citizenship in case our situation here changes and we decide to leave England. For the foreseeable future, however, life here is good, we are happy, and we are comfortable. However, I still vote in American elections and have a say in what America does. As a US citizen, I will not have anyone tell me that I cannot constructively criticize the country I was born and raised in.
Beige, you are very lucky. I have experienced some pretty ugly things thanks to the intolerant, and have seen a lot of ugly things happen to people tolerated less than I ever was, namely a school friend that was a Jevohah’s Witness.
Oh, and Scott, do you happen to live in Ohio? If so, we could use a guy like you in the Senate or Congress.
Chronic – I think I’ve mentioned this before here, but my Step-father is a Brit, and I take my family over to visit as often as I’m able. I have had the exact same conversations about religious tolerance in Europe vs. the States with him and his friends I can’t tell you how many times. It always ends the exact same way: with me pointing out that it’s really easy to have ‘tolerance’ when saying anything that someone doesn’t like is considered a hate crime.
It’s just like when they try to lecture Americans about gun violence. If you don’t allow your citizens the right to own firearms, it’s pretty easy to limit gun violence.
That’s what it always comes down to: ‘excessive’ freedom scares the crap out of Europeans. For all the talk of rights originating with man, they don’t trust their fellow man to do what’s best for himself or others. Why else ban firearms? Why else make it illegal to speak your mind?
Freedom comes with a heavy price – namely that you have to put up with everyone else having the same freedoms you do. I actually like that I live in a country where an atheist can make fun of me for believing in the Sky Faerie, and I can laugh and tell him I’ll pass that one on to St. Paul while they’re burning in hell. I find it much preferable to being fined or tossed in jail for criticizing a ‘protected group’ like Muslims. You really can’t see a connection between the fact that people in England don’t bring up religion the way we do and the laws they have in place basically forbidding it?
You’re not more free to be an atheist in the UK – people there are just less free to discuss it.
Scott F., while I see where you are coming from on the tolerance issue, it’s really not that extreme unless one is Muslim, and this is exactly the issue that people are starting to get really hacked off about over here, and understandably so. People say what they like and do what they like, trust me. I don’t work, so if someone chooses not to speak to me or include me in their social calendar, no one can legally stop them. That is not a hate crime if they did, and were I to report that I would get laughed at. Yet, of the many people I have met, many of which are highly religious, not one of them has made me feel uncomfortable, excluded me from a social gathering, or otherwise shunned me. Yet, in the States, I have a born again cousin who swears he is going to punch me next time he sees me, and can count at least eight people who distanced themselves from me upon finding out that I am an atheist, one of them after nearly ten years of friendship.
I am in agreement with you about firearms. I had to sell my guns before I moved here and I miss them.
I have a sense of humor about religious differences, don’t get me wrong. I make fun, and I have no problem with people making fun of me. Fun is the operative word, though. When it turns into some of the negative things I have had to deal with, I stop laughing. We poke fun here too. And that isn’t really even the issue I have. I love religious debate. I majored in Philosophy for crying out loud – that’s my thing. However, I feel I have to watch myself in the States more so than I do here.
It’s not as bad as you think. While the UK deserves the unflattering title of Nanny State, you are still pretty much free to do and say what you want. Many of the laws we have in the States for workplace discrimination are pretty much the same here.
Scott F. and Chronic – I personally would like to thank both of you having a heated(?) discussion that has not broken down into name calling or back biting. This is one of the reasons I like this site. I usually see arguments based on well thought out perspectives. I don’t always agree with them but I respect the point the person is trying to make.
Good job to both of you! While I am not nescessarily swayed either way, you both have my admiration.
I can’t wait for 4/20 Obama!
Thanks, D— !
I don’t believe that debate should ever degenerate that way, which is why I usually go off on people who do get rude, as you may have noticed on other posts *innocent whistle*. I have a lot of respect for Scott F., and indeed, most everyone I interact with here.
Thanks again!
May I humbly suggest Chronic, that your experience being shunned by church goers in the states is more a symbol of the quality of their character, rather than a condition of their religion?
I happen to be seriously agnostic, which is well known amongst the congregation of the church that I attend. Seems like I’d be a grand candidate for a Sunday sermon shanking, if churchy folks were at all prone to violence.
But I’ve got to say, I’ve never felt anything but warmth, even from those who disagree with me.
It would seem that you’ve been exposed to the worst in humans, not the church. The fact that a spiteful person hides behind a mask of religiosity does not mean that he represents the church, no more than the Castro Brothers typify Cubans.
I love the fact that there are “tea parties” popping up all over the place. 5,000 people in Cincinnati alone telling the government that enough is enough. Republicans and Democrats alike. That is what I love about this country. Men have died for people’s rights to stand up for what they believe in. Obama needs to get off of his high horse and remember that this country is great for a reason. His high and mighty attitude will only get him so far.
Well gosh, I go to work for a day and WWIII erupts (okay, slight exageration
).
I hope my comment didn’t come across as attacking in any way — I just wasn’t clear, and now your initial comment made more sense. I’m sorry that stuff has happened to you, but I’d be willing to wager they weren’t really following the faith they claimed to be, stupid people. My problem though, from reading about the atheist movement in America, is that many of them are not nearly as grounded, sensible and honest as you are. There is an assault on any moral grounding (be it a code from God or man), with a lot of it coming from those who have turned atheism into a religion in and of itself. I think that it has a lot to do with what has caused the political correctness plaguing Europe. However, (and I certainly don’t want this comparison taken the wrong way) I think it’s kind of like PeTA and true animal lovers — PeTA is militantly attacking anything contrary to what they supposedly believe, trying to bring everyone else in line, and those who simply “do their part” because being vegetarian and not owning a pet is what they feel is the right thing to do. But in the end, I know neither one of us is going to change our opinion, and that’s cool — but I will secretly hope you do.
And Nati, it kind of sounds to me more like you have a case of classic small town America hatred for any outsiders. Not that this helps make you feel any better or justifies it, but I am living that “traditional” life and still get it since I’m just the weirdo who moved here from California a decade ago.
Last, but certainly not least… sadly, AAW, I believe Scott’s from the next state over… though between at least you, Habanada and me, there might be enough of us Ohioans on here to get at least one of us elected!
No, Kristine, I felt I had to clarify my own comment because I was not clear at the outset.
To a certain extent, I feel that you are right about the atheist movement in America. I think that any movement that is just getting off the ground will go for shock tactics and extremism to make a point, and I don’t like radicals of any sort. I don’t belong to any groups. I don’t like groups. But if I am being fair, not every atheist group is out to stick it to the religious just to stick it to the religious. I did a lot of reading into some of the scattered groups out there, and found that those who turned atheism into a religion in and of itself are quite frankly, doing it wrong. I don’t see the point. More serious groups, however, and the majority of atheists I know in America (which sadly, are not many people), just want to be sure that they do not end up living in a country where religious views dictate policy, which is a huge problem in America.
That said, I am a huge fan of Richard Dawkins, even though some of the more radical elements attach themselves to him and he sometimes gets a bit preachy for my tastes.
Political correctness is a form of hypocrisy as far as I am concerned, and make no mistake, it’s not limited to Europe. While it seems strange for me to say that, I have real problems with the idea that loser teams get trophies, and kids aren’t chosen for the team on their own merit. I have problems with religion in public schools at all, so I am against the idea of trying to please every single one. As far as I am concerned, that’s what private school is for, that’s what church is for, that’s what the home is for. Do I think coins should read “In God We Trust”? Absolutely not, but there are way bigger fish to fry than that, and it’s not a battle worth fighting when real human rights are threatened, people are being run out of neighborhoods (http://www.religionnewsblog.com/18255/atheists-sue-religious-town), burning books without even knowing what they are about simply because they feature a “witch” and trying to ban them, and government letting religious groups influence it, which is unconstitutional. I’ve talked about my own experiences a lot here, but in comparison to a lot of things that are going on, have gone on, and continue to go on, I was lucky it wasn’t worse. I listened to a preacher once that was literally calling for America to burn heretics. I mean, seriously… whoa… is this 1453?
I’m sorry, I won’t be changing my opinon. My opinion changed when I found the strength to admit to myself that I was not a believer at the age of fifteen, and then again when I was ready to admit it at the age of 27 despite the fall out that resulted from it. You’re welcome to your opinon and I don’t even secretly hope that you do change it because it’s not my business. I speak with my vote, and I continue to work on my manifesto…
I definitely agree, Chronic, that political correctness is a problem everywhere — we just haven’t caught up yet in America, but we sure are trying.
I guess maybe this all boils down to differing views on the Constitution. I don’t believe the founding fathers wrote the Constitution to keep religion from influencing politics, just to keep the government from establishing and mandating a specific religion on everyone. In a way, if religion can’t influence politics, it eliminates my political involvement at all because I can’t separate the two — leaving the 15 percent of Americans who say they have no religion to dictate everything for the rest of us.
Should religion overtake the government, absolutely not. However, on certain issues I am going to fight to keep things more traditional. Whether that’s my belief in Jesus or simply my view of what helps move a country forward instead of backward is really impossible to say. There are non-Christians who hold nearly every Christian principle, like my sister’s boyfriend, so it certainly isn’t limited. Honestly, under Obama, things are definitely going to shift more in the direction of forcing religion out of government so it will be interesting to see how things go.
And manifestos are cool
Very theraputic. And since we know you hate communists, there probably isn’t much to worry about in the way of, say, Marx, lol.
Kristine, we’ll have to agree to disagree on what the role of religion/government should be, but honestly, the point you made about Obama is the one and only thing I ever even remotely liked about him, though what comes with it scares me a bit.
LMAO… yeah, I’m not going to pull a Marx, that’s for sure.
Bah I get stuck doing my work and miss all the discussions.
I’m with Pasta. Aleric and Kristine can mourn “missing out,” but I’d like to know where y’all get your espresso from that you’ve got the energy to keep it up!
For me it’s Cuban coffee, Habanada. Cuban coffee drunk by a hyperactive little Cuban.
But half the time you’re sitting across from me when I get my espresso, so I think you know where I get it from, Haba
I sympathize, Aleric. Seven hours a day at work in front of a computer and no Deceiver sneaking, it’s just not fair.
Damn, I missed everything! D, I’m starting to think you are right…the playground dads are usually nice…which just further enrages the playground moms. And Kristine, I wouldn’t call it hatred, just occasional bad attitude from random people. In fact, most people here are nice. Definitely nicer that in NY – they are friendly, laid-back, always smile…I don’t even know what it would take to make a new yorker smile at you. But at the same time, they are a lot more judgemental than new yorkers. I’d put it this way – they are very nice until your values clash. After that some still remain nice, some…not so much. But I don’t let it get to me.
Chronic, I don’t belong to any political party either. I disagree with pretty much everything that the Republican party stands for, but I don’t sympathize with the Democrats either. I’m not saying that not voting in the elections like I did is the way to go, it’s just that I couldn’t bring myself to vote for any of the candidates in this or 2004 presidential election. If there were a single person among those candidates truly worthy of running the country I would have voted for that person. But unfortunately, decent, honest, burdened by consciense and uninterested in self-gain people rarely even go into politics…and even if they do they either turn corrupt and dishonest themselves or their political career proves to be less than successful.
It should have been “their political careers prove to be less than successful”
LOL, Nati. Every election very nearly becomes the one where I did not vote. I have no love for any politician or for any of our recent (and current) presidents. But I always do. I had to re-register to reflect the absentee thing and there was a split second where I thought about not doing it. I couldn’t. I just keep voting for the lesser of two evils.
“Now he has to talk tough and whip out the big stick”
My thoughts exactly! I’d rather see our country and its president involved in a (yet another) sex scandal than in such unbecoming things as, say, nuclear war. Wait…that was what you meant, right?
MAybe you will turn your eye to his other financial trick – blaming the rest of the world’s financial ills on the offshore finance sector – whilst apparently blithely ignoring the “lax” corporate governance regime in Delaware, back in the Good Ol’ US of A. (You want to register a company? What are our Know Your Client rules? Nahhh – we don’t bother with that here in Delaware – we’ll just take your credit card number please”.)