Have you seen this gem by über-cartoonist and Pulitzer winner Pat Oliphant? It ran in Wednesday’s Washington Post, and in hundreds of other papers around the world. (Oliphant is the most widely syndicated political cartoonist alive.)
Many prominent Jews are, understandably — how should I put this? — miffed. Nonplussed. Anti-Defamation League national director Abe Foxman had the choicest quote:
Pat Oliphant’s outlandish and offensive use of the Star of David in combination with Nazi-like imagery is hideously anti-Semitic. It employs Nazi imagery by portraying Israel as a jack-booted, goose-stepping headless apparition. The implication is of an Israeli policy without a head or a heart.
Full disclosure: I’m not Jewish. But I see his point. I mean — look at the cartoon! It’s disturbing stuff. And it’s right there on CNN where everyone can see it.
Wha-wha-whaaaaaa? That just can’t be!
I mean, CNN wouldn’t show the now-famous Danish cartoons of Muhammed in 2006. “CNN has chosen to not show the cartoons,” the network said back then, “out of respect for Islam.”
Double-standard? Maybe one for religions whose extreme wing CNN has reason to fear (not t obe confused with “respect”). And another for everyone else.
Remember “The Holy Virgin Mary” by the British artist Chris Ofili? He used elephant dung and images of female genitalia to depict the mother of Jesus. CNN showed it.
And I can’t be sure, but I’d swear the first time I saw Andreas Serrano’s controversial photograph of a crucifix in a jar of urine, it was on CNN too.
Can the Chosen People just get a little respect? Probably not.
Hat Tip: Deceiver reader Daniel. Thanks!
No related posts.
Only one group has threatened to chop off heads of all involved if the media group in question continues to show the offending material…and mean it. So I guess it’s kind of a self-preservation thing — let’s see how they handle this one after more hear about it.
That really does look like something from Al-Jazeera.
Ugh. That cartoon is … wow. I’m not Jewish, and I have serious reservations regarding Israel’s policy on Gaza and the West Bank, but I still find it deeply offensive. Particularly the use of the Star of David to symbolize Israeli policy; while it is on Israel’s flag, it’s also a symbol of Judaism generally, and there are Jewish people (and probably even Israeli Jews) who don’t totally agree with Israel’s treatment of Palestinians.
That said, a major part of the problem with the Danish cartoon was that any attempt to make an image of Allah or Mohammad is considered sinful. It was not simply an issue with the tone or content of the cartoon, but with the medium itself as well. I’m not saying that justifies the decision, but it may be part of their thought process.
Hey they can always just make a Mormon Joke. I mean heck HBO had no problem showing parts of Mormon Temple ceremonies, which aren’t open to the non Mormon public. Yet sure enough they hired an ex Mormon to help “create authenticity.” You had to love the lame PR move that said they didn’t mean to offend anyone. Yeah I am sure this cartoonist would say the same if he were pressed with negativity. But nothing is sacred unless it will offend the Muslim populace at large. haven’t seen any recreations of things that happen in Mecca… I suppose that would be “disrespectful” and apparently the only religion that is untouchable anymore is Muslim, because we have to walk on egg shells so as not to be bigots. It seems to me bigotry is RAMPANT! Who knew?
But it wasn’t published in a Muslim publication.
Jews and Catholics don’t threaten to chop off heads or bomb buildings when their faith is insulted. Not that I think it makes it okay to leave the Muslims untouched, but that’s what it comes down to – cowardice.
Personally, I don’t think that anyone should get special treatment.
Wow, that’s pretty insulting. Every Jewish person I know is alarmed that the Obama administration has suddenly taken a decidedly pro Palestine approach. Even Hillary Clinton (apparently after a meeting with long time Palestine Consultant Jimmy Carter) has been pushing a solution based on Israeli concessions to Palestine.
The recent “Israel is guilty of war crimes” public relations mini-storm was even brought to you by the same agencies who ridiculously trumpeted that “Lebanon ‘won’ its thirty four day conflict” back in 2006.
Arab countries have dumped a lot of money into various media outlets and independent filmmakers attempting to skew Palestine’s portrayal as a Terrorist State.
I can’t help thinking what the US would do to Canada, Mexico, British Virgin Islands, Cuba, Dominican Republic, or Russia (all the neighboring countries) if they started lobbing missiles at civilian populations in the US.
Palestine would be gone by morning.
Chronic – Catholics had their time…the Crusades, Inquisition. Now they are more subversive with their propoganda.
If they (CNN) won’t televise one cartoon, out of respect for the religion, none should be televised. I just don’t understand why someone would cowtoe to demands by “religious” fanatics.
Why no head? It is not human? Oliphant wants us to believe that Israeli’s are not human? And the tiny beaten down Gaza figure? Are we to believe that the Gaza is a victim in this whole thing.
Does Oliphant and CNN hate Israel? Or do they choose not to even try to understand the conflict. This cartoon may be more ignorant than hateful. Unfortunately that ignorance will incite more hated.
LN, that isn’t even near to my point. No mainstream religion is free from atrocity in its past, and sometimes, its present. That is a given and not in dispute. The point I am making is that you don’t see Catholic officials bombing newspaper offices in this day and age, as the influence of the Catholic church has been neutered in that respect. You don’t see a lot of religions resorting to terrorism like the modern day Muslims are doing.
All religions that aren’t bombing people are using subversive propaganda to attract followers.
My point is that no religion should get special treatment and all should be criticized equally. I agree, no one should be cowed by fanatics of any kind, and CNN is headlining cowardice and hypocrisy all at once.
I agree–it’s cowardice, pure and simple. Any religion is okay, as long as it isn’t Judaism or Christianity. Buddhists don’t get ragged on because they’re nonthreatening (or perceived as such). Muslims, OTOH, don’t get ragged on because there’s a sufficient number of them with a “We’ll kill you ALL” mentality.
And if I have to hear about the Crusades ONE MORE TIME. A thousand years ago, people. Try talking about something that happened in 1950 and see how many blank looks and shrugs you get, but the Crusades? Still raw, probably from being dragged around and thrust in our faces every ten minutes. Yes, the Crusades were a terrible time. So was 9/11. So was the Cole bombing, and the Kenyan and Tunisian embassy bombings.
Everyone knows it’s okay to make fun of Christians and Jews and downright despicable to say anything remotely unpleasant about Muslims (especially) or, to a lesser extent, Hindus. I’ve never really heard of anyone insulting a Buddhist, but I could be corrected on that point.
Stupid Jews with your stupid Holocaust and everything! And you stupid Christians with your stupid “God is love” policy! Those poor, poor, poor, poor Muslim people. They just want to exercise their religious freedom to kill people. Is that so terrible? (Serious sarcasm going on here, just in case you’re mentally defective and can’t tell.)
Hey guys, pull out your magnifying glasses.
If you look really closely at poor Mother Gaza, you can almost make out the bomb strapped to her chest.
CNN= Communist News Network, which is why I choose to get my news elsewhere. My husband watches them just to see what the enemey is up to.
Whose pocket is CNN in and how much are they paying them? Maybe the Christian and the Jews should do a little judicious bombings and beheadings like certain other religions so the media would quit picking on them. Also, Israel shows more restraint than most countries when it comes to being attacked. The fact that they haven’t carpet bombed the Gaza Strip proves that.
I’d carpet bomb the Gaza Strip… wait… did I type that out loud? What’s the ticking sound?
Seriously, though, all this cowardly restraint does is give the terrorist a sense of accomplishment. If you are afraid to offend, you shouldn’t be in the business of news.
LN,
In addition to what others have said about the time frame of your examples compared to modern day, I feel it should also be noted that the examples you mentioned are a little less than spectacular. As far as the crusades go, the first few (maybe up to the 5th or so) could well be considered fully justified. They were never meant to kill of Muslims as their primary goal. Originally, it was just to take the holy land. Now, land-grabbing might seem like a pretty wicked goal as well except when you take into account that this particular plot of land was one in which several people the world over would go on pilgrimages to. Many of these pilgrims included Catholics from European nations who would get killed on the way either by bandits, Muslim zealots, or even local authorities who just didn’t like foreigners. They followed for the most part a set route which could be defended and for years beforehand the pope requested that the local leaders at least make an attempt at protecting visitors into the land, but they wouldn’t have any of that. The first crusade ended once the major lands became Catholic crusader states so that they could police the roads of Edessa, Tripoli, and Jerusalem. From there, the second crusade was launched after one of these states had been recaptured, an act which would obviously cause war even without a religious spin to it, while the next couple crusades worked in similar fashion. It wasn’t until later crusades that European nobles noticed that there was some wealth to be had in taking areas of the holy land rather than just religious reasons and went to plunder rather than bring about sanctuary to pilgrims. Since by then there was already a tradition of calling crusades to the holy land, crusades were called for whatever reason sounded good at the time though without the tradition of relatively justified crusades in the first place, the latter ones probably couldn’t have happened. Ultimately, the eventual degradation of the crusades wasn’t entirely due to Catholic actions nor was it entirely due to Muslim actions and I don’t know if I could really say which one had more blame. But I can say this, the more horrible acts during the crusades and their jihad counterparts were much more politically, than religiously, influenced.
The example of the inquisition is even worse. I should start off by mentioning, there’s no such thing as “the” inquisition. There were a lot throughout all of Europe. For some reason, people just associate “the” inquisition with the Spanish inquisition. And that’s exactly what it was; a perversion of a typical inquisition, except completely run by the Spanish government. Your typical inquisition worked something more like a missionary group except in lands that were already Catholic except which may have had a bit of a heresy problem in particular areas. For the most part, it was believed by the church that the heresy shouldn’t necessarily be crushed lest they create martyrs, but rather were so certain of the truth of Catholicism that they figured the only reason for the heretics could be due to ignorance of the teachings and so doctors of the faith and other great biblical scholars were sent who might be better able to respond to questions and criticisms than the local clergy. In Spain, however, they specifically requested to be able to run the operation themselves and it was granted by the church under the belief that inquisitions have worked well enough before, and it’s not like anybody could possibly screw it up. Again though, politics took over the situation. Heresy was no longer the primary target, but rather Jewish populations. At the time of the Spanish inquisition, the reconquista was in full swing and the Spanish wanted the Moors out of the peninsula. The Jews just happened to be on friendly terms with the Muslims who valued Jewish learning and education. The Spanish inquisition was meant to kill those whom they could as well as to scare the rest out of the country (which they did and the Jewish population was able to find new homes in more distant Muslim lands).
I guess what I’m trying to get at is that both of your examples were just of politically inspired actions rather than religiously inspired. The people involved just happened to be Catholic. I’m not saying that there haven’t been times when Catholics have done bad things actually for the religion instead of for politics, just that the times you gave aren’t the best examples despite being thrown around frivolously by people who don’t care about history beyond little CliffsNotes of time periods.
Palestinians, Israelis, here’s an idea just let ‘em fight until they’re ALL gone. Problem solved. Wait… where’s that humanitarian award presentation again?
What else do you expect? CNN is run by Democrats.
Leftists only like the Jews who were persecuted by Europeans and offered little resistance but hate the ones who harness the spirit of King David and kick anti-Semitic heinie. You don’t see a lot of movies about the Warsaw Resistance after all and there certainly has been no respect for Israel.
Paliwood has succeeded in manipulating the international media because the Arabs who have used the Palestinians lo these many decades have mastered the formula. Leftists don’t see good and evil in objective terms. They define good and evil as a division between “oppressor” and “oppressed.” And in their worldview, the “oppressed” are the folks with darker skin and the crummy huts, while the people who have indoor plumbing and look clean must be the “oppressors.” Never mind that the Pali leadership has only been interested in producing ’sploding teenagers and not anything like a functioning society.
Of course the same Israel-haters don’t think the U.S. of A. has any right to defend itself either.
@JAJ
You can’t really compare the HBO Big Love and Mormonism thing to the rest of this. Never once did they portray the Mormon rituals in a parodic light. They were factual and accurate, but it still offended Mormons because they were exposed. But its not as if they’d made a farce of Mormonism. If they’d meant to offend someone, I’m sure they could have portrayed the rituals in a much more negative light, which they did not.
Not defending CNN here – show either ALL potentially offensive to the religious imagery, or none of it. But I would like to say that I disagree with some of you here saying that most Muslim or Middle-Eastern people are blood-thirsty religious fanatics who just can’t wait to blow something up. That is simply untrue. And, frankly, quite offensive. First of all, not ALL people living in Palestina or anywhere else in the Middle-East are Muslims – a significant percentage of the population there are Christians. And second, not all the Muslims who live there (or anywhere else) are hateful murderous fanatics they are portrayed to be by some media sources. Making assumptions about all Muslims or all Middle Easterns based on the actions of Hammas or Al Qaeda is like making assumptions about Americans based on the actions of such groups as, say, KKK or ALF. My parents are naturalized American citizens, but they were born in the Middle East. They were both raised Christians, and they are not even ethnically Arabs. Not all people who live in the Middle East are Arabs, there is a multitude of ethnicities there. My family and I are of the mixed heritage, and we have Muslim, Orthodox Christian, Catholic and Jewish people in our family and we all love each other and nobody wants to blow another one’s head off. I was born here, but raised in one of those countries by my grandparents, and I still visit every now and then, and I take everything that goes on in the Middle East very personally. I feel sad and angry when people who live there are being undeservedly villified. I was there during the 9/11 attacks, and no one was dancing in the streets like they showed it here on TV. People were stunned and heartbroken, a lot of people who live there have friends and relatives who live here in the US, most of them in NY and tri-state area. Why in the f*** would anyone be happy about the prospect of losing their loved ones to terrorist attacks?! My best friend’s cousin was working at the World Trade Center when it happened. My friend’s mother (his aunt) had to be taken to the hospital when she learned what had happened. But the media don’t show you that, do they? They filmed some degenerates (that can be found in every society, not just in the Middle East) and showed them on TV to fuel the hate. I’m saddened to see that they have suceeded.
As for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, both are dead wrong. Hammas is wrong for empoying the tactics that they employ (again, Hammas doesn’t represent all Palestinians, all Muslims or all Middle Easterners). And Israel is wrong for acting (repeatedly) as an aggressor, and breaking Geneva conventions by building on occupied territories. They are not supposed to build anything there…but they still do, Geneva conventions be damned. Unfortunately, it seems like the conflict is never going to be resolved.
I’ve visited (and have lived in) in many Middle Eastern countries. Most people who live there just want peace. They knew that I was an American citizen and no one has ever said anything negative to me – on the contrary, they would all say how lucky I was to be a citizen of such a great country and to be able to live here and have the opportunities people over there could only dream of.
I was there (lucky me) when the war in Iraq began (well, we weren’t in Iraq itself, we were in a neighbouring country’s bordertown…but we still thought that we were all gonna die.) I still have relatives, friends and family members who live there. As I have brothers-in-law who serve in the US military. As I have (had?) a beast friend and a fiancee who both went missing in the war zone. It’s been almost 5 years and I still don’t know what’s become of them. My heart breaks every day. I just want the war in Iraq to be over and the Israeli-Palestinian coflict to be resolved…I don’t want anybody to die.
a best fiend *fixed*
omg…a best friend *fixed* I’m an idiot
As a Marine who went door-to-door during our OP in Fallujah, I would like to point out just how utterly unbelievable the civilian death toll in Operation Cast Lead was, especially when you consider how crowded Gaza is. It would be like trying to run a successful operation in Manhattan without taking out too many innocents.
I honestly believe it’s time for Israel to reevaluate it’s strategy though. Every war they fight they go half-assed and constantly cancel attacks to protect innocents (innocents generally placed there ON PURPOSE to protect their leaders), and what does it get them? Everyone still bitches and moans about how evil they are. At some point, they’re going to realize that playing nice isn’t getting them anywhere… and God help their neighbors on that day.
And Nati – bringing up the Geneva Convention in a discussion about waging war against terrorist entities is probably not the best argument to give. Considering of course that under that convention or ANY nation’s Code of Military Justice, those terrorists don’t qualify for Geneva protection.
They don’t wear uniforms, they purposely target civilians, they use human shields, they use IEDs and human bombs, ect.
When they start identifying themselves by wearing uniforms, stop treating civilians as bullet stoppers and propaganda tools, quit telling their women and children to blow themselves up in pizza parlors, and stand up and fight like men – THEN they can bitch and moan about the Geneva Convention. That’s like a boxer with iron gloves bitching that his opponent kicked him in the balls: if you’re not following the rules yourself, don’t expect your opponent to.
LN –
I’m so in deep with the Catholic conspiracy to be a terrible, evil person, you never even knew that I was. But there is one and we’re powerful.
In all seriousness, I refuse to pay for the crimes my ancestors committed; I do not feel personally responsible for the Crusades or the Inquisition. Christianity has inflicted countless evil on the world – Christianity, not just Catholicism – but I am not going to take the blame for you to prove that Catholics are still very bad people.
You know, from my perspective here in a small southern town, I am curious to know what makes you believe Catholicism has any remaining, power in the U.S. It certainly has no power here.
You know, I used to be Catholic, right? Hardcore.
Anyhow, Nati, I know what you are saying. I totally sympathize. And given that I just went to the local theatre to see the daughter of a great friend of ours perform, meaning, I am three sheets to the wind, I feel for the innocents being killed.
HOWEVER, those people who blew up the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, and a good part of PA, aren’t exactly feeling for the rest of us. So, you know what, as horrible as it is to say, and as much as I like you personally, I am all for blowing most of the Middle East back into the Stone Age. No offense, honestly, but seriously, if someone is willing to blow up innocents, why shouldn’t we go all out to get rid of them? I don’t feel so bad for those people in the Gaza Strip though maybe I should because I don’t like the idea of innocent people getting hurt or having their lives messed up. Truly. But it’s a harsh world, I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood, and despite my former Catholic sympathies (I am now an atheist), I can’t feel much pity.
I have a feeling that I am going to regret posting this the second I hit “submit”. I probably shouldn’t because in the end, I love people no matter who they are and take them as individuals. But damn, we’ve taken a lot of abuse here in the West and it’s time to just stop. And it’s time for me to stop because again, I’m drunk, and I am starting to get way off topic.
I feel like an ass now. I’m going to bed hoping fervently Nati doesn’t freakin’ hate me.
Just for the record, I have no respect for religion in general. I just wish people would keep it to themselves and let others be, no matter what they believe. The world would be a better place. And if it were a matter of any other religion being responsible for terrorism (and I don’t forgive any religion for past offences), I would feel the same.
LN, there hasn’t been a real Catholic conspiracy in centuries if you don’t count… well Ireland, and even that is questionable given that it’s so contained. I grew up as a Catholic minority, and trust me, before I abandoned religion altogether, I would have scared most of you with my conviction.
Seriously, it’s bedtime for me. One of my favorite people here probably hates me because I am drunk and ready to bomb the world. Again, I feel like a jerk tonight suddenly, and I might be MIA for a few days because of it… maybe. We’ll see how sober Malanga feels tomorrow.
Scott, I wasn’t saying that Geneva Conventions apply or should apply to Hamas – I realize that since they use terrorist tactics, Geneva Conventions don’t apply to them. I was talking about occupied territories on the West Bank and the Israelis settling there. THAT’s breaking one of the Geneva conventions, according to which the occupying country is prohibited from building anything or allowing its citizens to settle on the occupied territory. Yet the Israelis are still doing that. I figured since the Palestina Liberation Organization has ratified those conventions, they might apply here. Apparently, the UN figured the same thing, because it declared the Israeli settlements illegal and a violation of that specific Geneva Convention that I was talking about. And even if their settling there wasn’t violating Geneva Conventions, it’s simply unsafe for Israelis themselves. They settle on the occupied territory, thus further enraging Hamas and they expect not to be targeted by them. Of course they are going to be targeted…I’m in no way saying that they deserve it, but it’s like stepping into a cage with an enraged lion and expecting not to be mauled.
The way I look at it, they are both wrong. Israel’s occupying the West Bank does not justify the actions of Hamas, but when Israel retaliates, most of the time it’s not the Hamas fighters that get killed. So far it looks like the entire population of Palestina is being constantly punished for the actions of a small minority – Hamas.
That being said, I wouldn’t dare to claim to know the state of mind of the majority of Palestinians. I honestly don’t know whether they do or do not support Hamas, I don’t live there, and everything I know about the situation is what I managed to gather from our trustworthy, unbiased media. (I actually have some very distant relatives who live in that area, but they are not pro-Israeli or pro-Hamas, they are just scared s***less for their lives. They have fled to another part of Israel after the recent Hamas attacks, and when I call them it’s mostly to make sure they are okay, we hardly ever discuss politics).
Unfortunately, just like I said before, it looks like this conflict is never going to be resolved. Because this conflict is not just about the West Bank. It would have been somewhat easier to resolve, I think, if it were just about the West Bank, but Hamas refuses to aknowledge that Israel even exists as a state…so, sadly, so far there’s no end in sight.
Nati, thanks for giving us insight into your life. I think everyone in the US should spend a week or two outside its borders to appreciate it. Likewise, anyone in the UK, France, etc. Quite an eye-opener, if one just opens their eyes. Out of high school, I was in a concert band that toured Europe for 3 weeks. Got a “great” appreciation for other cultures as well. Then my family and I lived in Seoul for 2 years (USAF). We have an Army daughter in S. Korea now, with whom we get to ooVoo. This world can be a wonderful place if it weren’t for the loonies.
Nati – I get that this is personal to you on a level I don’t claim to comprehend, and I’m sure that tempers your judgment against the Palestinians. But there are a few big things you (and most people) tend to leave out of the argument.
First off – forget the history of the region for a minute, as counter-intuitive as that may seem, and think of this as a single portion of recent world history. What stands out to you as being different than other major conflicts? Namely, that the ORIGINAL victim was never allowed to rectify the situations that led to war in the first place. Lets not forget that ALL land occupied by Israel was ‘won’ after they were attacked by ALL of their neighbors simultaneously. The UN sure didn’t mind creating the nation of Israel, but beyond that they haven’t done crap for them. For instance, we (Western members of the UN) had just as much right under international law to protect the state of Israel as we had getting involved in Korea or Vietnam or Kuwait for that matter. We would have been acting to preserve a sovereign nation from a whole slew of unwarranted aggressors – but no one got involved.
Then when the Israelis (by themselves) beat the living hell out of their attackers and drove them back, their enemies had the unmitigated gaul to bitch about a small portion of their lands being occupied (the vast majority of which have no been returned). Now, this is where I start holding most of the Middle East responsible for this continuing quagmire. Name one Muslim nation in the Middle East that hasn’t made this problem worse. A bunch of them shipped their undesirables to places like the West Bank and told them they could make homes there. How is that any different than the Jews placing settlements? They directly or indirectly supply terror organizations like Hamas with weapons and funding, a steady stream of anti-semetic propaganda, new recruits, ect.
Propaganda you seem to buy to a certain extent I might add. How can you claim with a straight face that “but when Israel retaliates, most of the time it’s not the Hamas fighters that get killed.” Well no shit. That’s like a guy stealing a tank, putting his entire family inside at gunpoint, and wrecking half of Cleavland. If the family inside the tank gets killed when the cops try to stop him, who’s fault is that? The cops didn’t create the situation, the guy did, probably KNOWING that it would make the police hesitate in taking him down. If you hide in the basement of a home full of children, believe me, you know what you’re doing and why you’re doing it.
That’s why, believe it or not, a lot of people rightly see a very big distinction between Israel and the Palestinian terrorists they oppose. When Israel kills civilians it’s collateral damage, when Palestinians kill civilians, it’s because they were aiming at them.
Chronic, I don’t hate you. I, however, STRONGLY disagree with “blowing most of the Middle East into the Stone Age”. Some degenerates in certain countries might deserve it, but, unfortunately, it’s the innocent population that suffers most. People there are being victimized constantly, even in countries that are at peace. If the exterior enemy won’t get you, your own f***ing government will. The levels of corruption there are just unbelievable. And I was living in moderate countries there, like Turkey, Jordan, etc. Not f***ing Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan (thank God…and no offense to anyone). The town I was raised in was extremely tolerant – we had mosques, churches and synagogues (a large amount of population were Jewish) and people coexisted just fine. Actually, no one gave 2 s**ts about religion there, if someone was overtly religious, they were considered “odd”. But then again, I was raised probably in the most moderate Muslim country there is. The religion is separate from the state there, everyone is dressed in european clothing, mcdonalds’ and bk’s are on every corner, people watch French and British channels on TV. It was like living in Europe. So not every Muslim/Middle Eastern country is created equal. Again, I haven’t been to or lived in anywhere near the veiled narrow-minded degenerate countries where people are oppressed because of their ethnicity, gender or religious beliefs. So I don’t know what life over there might be like or what they think or how they feel about US, Israel or anything else.
But whenever there is a war or a conflict in that area, it always makes me feel heartbroken, even if I don’t have anything to do with the country involved. And I feel guilty, too. I live here, watch cable TV, take my kid to the playground and to the park, comment on blogs about people I don’t know…and for people who live there each day might become their last. I mean, I’m grateful that I can live here , but at the same time I feel like I should be there. That’s why I try to visit as often as I can.
On a side note, Catholic conspiracy?? What? Am I missing something?
Nati, my drunken butt is here again. Believe me, I understand what you are saying, and I don’t necessarily disagree. I hate to see innocent lives wasted, and I realize that all of the Middle East is not the same. It just pisses me off to see what is going on there. A lot of my friends from the old neighborhood had to go and do their two to four years in Israel, and they came back reluctantly. I’m just at that point where I just wish all religious fanatics, of any sort, would go away, even at the most extreme level, meaning death. It isn’t right, and I realize that just like you can’t paint all people of a faith or non faith with the same brush, you have to understand that what we get out of the Middle East on the news each day is violence, intolerance, hatred, and death. I think a lot of people on the outside looking in are fed up with the people who are still living in basically the stone age. So, if I get a bit passionate, that’s why. It’s this sort of thing that makes me even more disgusted with the concept of religion in general, though at heart, I honestly don’t care what people believe and have no desire to change those beliefs in others. Live and let live. I know I’m not here to change the world. I just want to live in it and fervently hope that others have the same opportunity to do the same.
But most importantly, I’m glad you don’t hate me. On that note, I am off to bed for real this time, as we are approaching 3am and Pink Floyd’s “The Final Cut” album is coming to an end on hubby’s computer.
Scott, I agree that Israel stands alone there surrounded by Muslim countries who refuse to even aknowledge it as a state. Well, actually, some of them now do aknowledge it. (Turkey, Egypt, Jordan and the country I was raised in have diplomatic relations with Israel). I wasn’t saying that Israel doesn’t have the right to defend itself. They occupied the West Bank after having been attacked by five countries (Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt) at the same time, true, but that was back in 1967. I sometimes question how justified their continuing to occupy the West Bank is. Egypt and Jordan have aknowledged Israel and I don’t think Iraq would attack. Again, I haven’t been in the conflict zone myself, so everything I know on the subject is what I read somewhere and heard from people who live(d) or have been there, so, of course, I might be wrong.
Les Paul, thanks (again) for your comment.
Guys, I’m sorry I went all Charles Dickens on you with my mile end posts. Sort of a touchy subject for me. Even though I’m not a Palestinian or an Israeli, and am from a different area, I’m always saddened by (more) bad news from the region. I don’t even know how to explain it…sort of hits close to home (literally).
oh, and Les Paul, I also wanted to say that it’s true that the media coverage of some events here is at times one-sided and biased. Sometimes getting out of the country really does put things in perspective.
I’m one of those liberals that you hear so much about and I completely support Israel in it’s right to defend itself. This is probably because I went there in 2006 and still have friends who live there. Is peace possible? Well, if one side can decide they no longer want the destruction or to drive the other into the sea and that they actually want a decent life for their country, then maybe things will change.
Funny story, for me, at least. My first cab ride in Tel Aviv from the airport was very interesting. Cab driver making conversation with a very tired me, asked where I’m from. I told him Seattle, he had never heard of it so I said America. He responds, “Your President Bush, he is a very bad man,” as we careened in the driving rain. “Would it make you feel better if I told you I didn’t vote for him?” Which meant to me, will I arrive to my hotel in one piece?
So does the fact that CNN is willing to post such a cartoon mean that, at least CNN, is not part of the zionist media conspiracy? Because I thought the Jews ran all the media…..
From a perspective where the artist is attempting to create a buzz though, mission accomplished. I don’t find it humorous but I mean hello look at what it started here on this blog alone. I think that it was poor taste and idiotic, but he has the right to think and feel this way and to depict it in his form of art. While he has the right to depict he doesn’t have the right to control the backlash.
I do appreciate the differing perspectives however. What a sad state of affairs that that area of the world has been in and remains. With regards to the conflict, I don’t suppose that Israel is always blameless little angels. Hamas is hardly the victim either as the picture alludes. Also I find it peculiar that it says “gaza” on the little character. Perhaps Gaza is leading the Israeli machine slowly off a cliff, I don’t know. Another angle could be that Gaza will either be eaten by Israel or pushed off the cliff. Hamas is hardly innocent though as I said. They are terror sponsored and anytime you have an extreme “hater” if you will, willing to shoot your women and children and anyone else, living next door you get edgy. It is probably an “edgying” factor (is that a word….. it is now!) that Hamas somehow acquires all these weapons to keep using from somewhere. I dont’ think that their weapons just grown on the fertile banks they have. But hey I have an idea let’s keep shooting at a country that battled back a few other surrounding countries. And then when they swat us back and hurt us, let’s play the victim. As was stated above,
“That’s why, believe it or not, a lot of people rightly see a very big distinction between Israel and the Palestinian terrorists they oppose. When Israel kills civilians it’s collateral damage, when Palestinians kill civilians, it’s because they were aiming at them.”
If the Palestinians were battling for freedom and liberty I think it would show, but instead they fight out of hatred as their sole motivation, with the desire for some land they feel is rightfully theirs as secondary.
Palestina does not equal Hamas, people! Saying that all Palestinians are Hamas militants is like saying, for example, that all Kurds are in PKK or that all Irish people used to be in the IRA. And no one is saying that Israel has no right to defend itself, it’s just that occupying the territories that weren’t given to Israel during the partition, walling those territories in, driving people off their land and forcing them to live in refugee camps doesn’t look like self-defense to some people myself included. I beleive that the US should use its influence to push for a peaceful resolution of the conflict, not choose sides here, because choosing sides is not helping anything.
“I am all for blowing most of the Middle East back into the Stone Age. No offense, honestly”.
Yes, of course, no offense taken.
Feel free to bomb my relatives in the Middle East, who are pacifist, hardworking, terrified for the future of their country and are hoping to emigrate to America in the hopes of forging new identities and violence free lives for themselves.
I am so infuriated by your statement. You’re a stupid bitch, no offense, honestly.
LYTEUP, you are entitled to your opinion. See, no one was really bothered when ten thousand of my people faced firing squads or were vanished in the night by their government for expressing their opinions. In fact, half the world uses that island as a place for cheap vacations while the natives starve and serve them fancy drinks on beaches they cannot frequent in their free time.
If you have been following the conversation I’ve been having with Nati on the matter, you would know where I was coming from, and you would know that I was pretty well inebriated when I wrote it. I’m not saying that you aren’t entitled to your opinion or that you aren’t welcome to take offense. Most people seem to enjoy being offended, though I would say your offense is even legitimate. I have been called worse by better and can happily wear the title of “bitch” as a badge of honor.
I am happy to welcome pacifist hard working people into whatever country I live in because my family is made up of exiles and were afforded that opportunity. However, excuse the frick out of me for wanting to violent action to be taken against that sector of backward, fanatical Muslims that are burning American flags in the streets, keeping women in the Stone Age, and planning terrorist attacks.
Just because you were inebriated, you want me to excuse you for saying that you wanted to bomb a group of nations “back into the Stone Age”? A group of nations that are widely populated by hardworking families that desperately want the rocky political conditions of their respective countries repaired so their children can have a better future?
If you’re so drunk, back the fuck away from the keyboard before you go round posting offensive things that upset me and cause me to call you a stupid bitch. Seeing as you’ve admitted you wear the title of “bitch” as “a badge of honour”, I don’t know if you are mocking my anger and fury at your statement or if you are patronising what I have said.
I see where you’re coming from, Chronic. For being such an amazing religion, how is it that most Muslim countries have so many problems? I’m not saying Christian/secular nations don’t have problems, but they’re completely different ones. Hate to be a pessimist, but given that this is a conflict rooted in Jacob taking Esau’s blessing from Isaac, there won’t ever be peace.
What can change is CNN getting its act together and reporting fairly across the board — show ‘em all or none. It doesn’t seem to be rocket science. Personally, as a matter of exposing the hateful bigotry in the world, I would go with showing them.
Dang it, this seems to be one of those threads where everyone remembers something right after hitting send!
I was also going to add that I understand there are good people in the region who aren’t part of those “problems” I mentioned, but you need to sit down and learn to have an adult conversation, Lyteup. You’ve said plenty of stuff in other threads that has also angered and/or annoyed me and I didn’t 1) resort to screaming obsenities, 2) lob personal insults, 3) blame you for the feelings *I* have control over, 4) whine that you made me want to lob personal insults, 5) ever tell you you weren’t entitled to your, in my opinion, wrong opinions… I mean, really.
I don’t need for you to excuse me for anything, LYTEUP. Neither do I feel the need to back up off the keyboard because you say so, or because I might say something upsetting. I am over 21, can drink if it suits me, and the internet police can’t stop me. My family fought long and hard for the privelege of expressing an opinion, and amending that opinion even while drunk for me to worry about upsetting you. I get upset when I see hipsters in Che Guevara tee shirts, but that doesn’t give me the right to tell them to take it off because it offends me.
Am I mocking you? If you want to believe that, you are allowed to. But the fact is, anyone that wants to discuss a difference of opinion with me, or attempt to change my opinion in a way that doesn’t involve name calling, as Nati did, will have my respect. You, however, don’t. So… cry me a river. I can be the biggest bitch on two legs if you prompt me to it, and yes, I take pride in that.
Kristine, I agree totally. You pretty much said it in a much better way.
Kristine, just saw that follow up post. Again you said it better than I could have.
No Chronic you should tell them to take them off (the Che t-shirts) because they’re stupid.
Lyteup, name-calling is extremely disrespectful and doesn’t help you to prove your point or change anyone’s mind. Chronic’s opinion(s) might be different from ours, but she is entitled to them and has the right to express them just like anybody else. That’s what our country is about and that’s what makes it great. The fact that someone’s opinion doesn’t coincide with yours doesn’t give you the right to insult them. You have opened the door for more insults and hostility, something that wasn’t present in this thread before you posted. Just because we are having a discussion on the Internet doesn’t mean we don’t have to be civil to each other.
Chronic, I just want to say that even though I disagree with the statement you’d made about Middle East, I somewhat understand where you are coming from. I realize that it is hard (if not impossible) for someone who hasn’t been to the region and can only get their information about it from media sources, to form a positive opinion about the region. With all the negativity on the news I can hardly blame anyone for being angry, frightened or resentful. I really don’t expect someone who hasn’t been there to know the difference (or to even suspect than any difference exists) between such countries as, say, Afghanistan and the moderate peaceful countries, like Turkey etc. This is why I resent the intolerant, hateful people from the region probably more than anyone with a different ethnic background ever could – they make us ALL look bad. As someone who has been to the region and lived there, I would like to say (again) that I disagree with you and I’m sorry that you feel that way, but I realize that I can hardly blame you. I truly hope that one day there will be peace at the Middle East and that you (along with a lot of other people) will change your mind. I still like you a lot personally and what you had said (even though I was a bit surprised at that at first) doesn’t affect my opinion of you as a person.
I meant “help you prove”
Nati, thank you, first of all. I do have a lot of respect for you and I like you personally, so I am glad that we can have this discussion without any of that being compromised. And no, I haven’t been to the Middle East, nor do I have an interest in going (other than Turkey, really), just as I would never go to China because it is Communist. I totally see your point, and I am not so ignorant as to think that everyone in the Middle East is sitting around planning terrorist attacks. I don’t live in a bubble surrounded only by non Muslim Westerners.
Unfair or not, I do have a negative view of the Muslim community, and I cannot help but feel that way when that minority of people that do give the average, normal, and peaceful Middle Easterner a bad name are responsible for so much hatred and death. The guys behind 9/11 lived and worked not 20 miles from where I used to live in Florida. I had a Middle Eastern professor at university that spent the majority of class time preaching against Jews and Western values and trying to make Jewish students cry. A guy that built a career on promoting a positive image for the Muslim community in America recently chopped his wife’s head off. Honor killings are becoming an increasing problem in the UK and elsewhere, and even though the concept of honor killing is not necessarily acceptable to the average Muslim, no one speaks up until the pressure is on them to do so. The thing that gets me, though, is that while yes, there are Muslims out there, for example, helping women get out of arranged marriages and sheltering them, they themselves are a minority. Those good people that I know are out there in these countries and communities are strangely silent a lot of the time. Perhaps it is a minority of people responsible for the violence, but you never hear of a vast majority condemning these things from within the Muslim community.
To further that negative view, is this idea that Muslims are untouchable when it comes to political cartoons. It’s bad enough to frighten your own people into silence but to do it to others? Why should anyone hold their beliefs any more sacred than someone else’s? Everyone should be fair game or equally untouchable.
Of course, this is only what I see. I don’t know who’s doing what in the Middle East to combat those negatives, and there could well be a lot more than it seems. But we don’t see that here or in America. We see little old men on TV applauding the work of terrorists. We don’t see organizations run by a Muslim majority helping women in Western countries that are abused by their own families in the name of religion. We see even the people that wouldn’t do something like that defend the actions of a very sick minority. We see people supporting the implementation of Sharia Law in Britain.
I would love to see peace in the Middle East. I would love to see peace everywhere for that matter. I think everyone deserves an opportunity to succeed and live happy lives no matter where they are from. However, despite the knowledge that the problems in the Middle East are nearly eternal, I have to wonder if more aggressive action wouldn’t benefit that majority of the normal Middle Eastern population, and the world in general.
LMAO, Pasta. I would be in fights at least once a month if I did that. I would love to, though.
Chronic hit the nail on the head, extremists may be a minority, but they certainly don’t face a lack of support from the so-called ‘moderates’. When an abortion clinic is bombed, everyone from the Pope to the local Pastor jumps right in front of a camera and not only condemns it, but expresses the truth – if you’re killing people, you’re not a very good Christian! We just don’t hear that when Muslims commit atrocities, unless it looks like we’re pissed off enough to go to war about it, then we’ll get a little lip-service.
I used to believe this might actually be a product of our media – that reporting terrorist attacks is good ratings, and reporting a bunch of regular Muslims condemning it isn’t. I’m sorry though, that’s just not the case. The ONLY time we hear from American Muslims is when they’re pissed off about something. You’re telling me they can’t find 10 people to condemn attacks, but if Israel starts lobbing bombs they can suddenly mobilize thousands of people to march in cities all over the world? I just have to call bullshit. They’re heard when they want to be heard, and they sure as hell seem to have no interest in apologizing for anything.
Nati mentioned the media, and typically accused them of promoting a Western position on events, but if anything it’s the exact opposite (as cartoons like this prove). When a Christian bombs and abortion clinic, how much time does anyone spend trying to examine ‘well, why doesn’t he like us? What can we do to fix this?’. It’s just “This guy was a whack-job and everyone agrees he was a douche.” Which is as it should be, because it’s true.
But that doesn’t happen when a Muslim blows something up. Sure, average citizens will call them for the homicidal assholes they really are, but the media is more concerned about ‘what we did to cause them to be so angry’. Here’s a memo – IT DOESN’T MATTER WHY!!!!! If you kill innocent people for ANY reason, it doesn’t matter why you did it, what country you’re from, or what religion you are. You forfeited your right to get your grievances heard when you resorted to violence outside the rules of modern warfare, which are very clear.
I also love people calling Turkey ‘moderate’. If Turkey is the model of a moderate Islamic state, then we really should just write off the entire region and finish this thing once and for all. Since the end of a Cold War Turkey has refused to help Western nations do ANYTHING to help combat Middle Eastern extremism or rogue states like Iraq. It’s pretty bad when Pakistan is considered far more helpful and easy to work with than a so-called ‘moderate’ Islamic state.
All that said, the biggest problem Muslims need to address if they want to get off most westerners shit lists, is to either learn to properly assimilate, or stay where you are. They seem to have this belief that anywhere they are, they can substitute their own rules for the laws of the society that’s been kind enough to let them settle there. There is no excuse for the way they’ve acted in Western Europe, especially France, Britain, and the Netherlands. How do you negotiate with people who demand you strip your own citizens of their rights just so they can live in a place exactly like… well, exactly like the one they apparently didn’t like so much THEY LEFT.
You know what, Kristine? When you have family members, friends and relatives that are being grouped as a bunch of terrorists and you hear people say things like they wish they would be bombed “back into the stone age”, then you can bitch and whine all you want, just like I have.
Also, if you’ve been “angered and/or annoyed” by my comments, just don’t read them, it’s as easy as that.
You know what, Kristine? When you have family members, friends and relatives being lumped as a bunch of terrorists simply because of where they live, and you hear people saying they wish your family would be “bombed back into the Stone Age”, then you can bitch and whine all you want, just like I have.
Oh, and if you’re so “angered and/or annoyed” by my comments, don’t read them, it’s as simple as that.
By the way, Chronic Malanga, what the hell makes you think that I want to gain your respect?(“anyone that wants to discuss a difference of opinion with me that doesn’t involve name calling, will have my respect. You, however, don’t.”)
Go cry yourself a river and see somebody about your drinking problem while you’re at it.
Guys (Chronic and Scott), I never said that all Muslim/Middle Easterns are undeservedly villified innocents, I’m the first one to admit that there are sick, hateful, violent people living in the Middle East and in immigrant communities all over the world. There are sick, violent, hateful people living in every society, in every nation. I’m just saying that you can’t judge about an entire nation or ethnicity by the actions and behaviour of some deranged representatives of that nation/ethnicity. Chronic, one doesn’t have to be a Muslim or a Middle-Easterner to kill his wife, to blow something up or to refuse to abide by the laws of the society he lives in. I’m just saying that because you gave some examples, well, there are countless examples of non-Muslim/Middle-Eastern people acting like swine, and we can just go back and force like that for I don’t know how many hours (if not days). The postive Muslim image promoter cut off his wife’s head and the church minister turned out to be a BTK killer. Does that suggest that all Americans/Christians/church ministers are serial killers? F*** no. And the same goes for every other nation – you just can’t judge about an entire nation based on some of it degenerate representatives’ actions. And again, not every Muslim country or community is created equal. For example, in the country that I was raised in, everyone condemned the 9/11 attacks just like they would condemn any other act of violence. The country’s gov’t always cooperated with the US whenever any cooperation was required. As for those who don’t openly condemn the acts of violence and terrorism, chances are some of them are afraid of the terrorists themselves. I mean, good luck trying to openly condemn anything in a country where your own government is out to get you and your entire family. Chronic, I understand that you must have had some negative experiences with the Muslim community and I’m truly sorry about that. And again, especially considering that you now live much closer to the Middle East, I don’t blame you for feeling threatened or angry. Hell, I get freaking terrified every time those cave dwelling beards come up on tv and go on and on about their “jihad against the unfaithful”. And omg@Sharia Law in Britain…what are they f***ing nuts?! I mean, I’ve never been to UK so I have no idea what an immigrant Muslim community over there might be like…but the picture you are painting is sure not pretty. I’ve been to France though, almost 6 yrs ago, I decided (at that point of my life) that I wanted to live there and moved into one of the “cite”s with the rest of the Middle Eastern/African community. I didn’t stay there though. Not because of the people in the community, but because certain things just didn’t work out for me there. People were cool though. Everyone was nice to me there, can’t say anything bad about anyone.
Scott, you and I must read different newspapers/watch different channels on TV. You have mentioned the pro-Palestinian media propaganda in one of your previous posts and I have never read or heard anything pro-Palestinian in US media. I read the New York Times, it’s extremely pro-Israel and I usually have to search the Internet for hours to read something, anything unbiased about the situation. Nor have I ever seen any media source analyzing the motives of a terrorist. I’m not saying that there aren’t any (US) media sources that are pro-Palestinian or that try to psychoanalyze and justify terrorism, I just haven’t seen, read or heard anything like that.
And Chronic, there are countless local humanitarian organizations in the Middle East. There is one that is founded by women and consist of just women – doctors, nurses, relief workers, rescue squad are all female. The reason for that is that in such countries as Saudi Arabia a woman can’t be physically touched in any way by a man who’s not a member of her family, not even to help her or even save her life. So women from several Middle Eastern countries have founded this organization to be able to help other women in need. There are countless others, they are just not getting any media coverage. I know Scott will disagree with me, but I honestly believe that the cave dwelling beards and the flags burning Neandarthal twats get to be shown on TV instead because they guarantee better ratings. I wanted to say something else, but I forgot what it was (that I wanted to say), it’s almost 4 AM here and I’m falling asleep, I hope I made sense. (I know I probably misspelled half of what I wrote, but I’m too tired to check).
you know-considering the cartoon was directed at the israeli soldiers i’m not surprised theres hatred for them-especially as the soldiers wear t-shirts like this: http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009/03/israeli-solider-t-shirt-show-pregnant.html
LMAO LYTEUP! I think anyone with a keen sense of the obvious can see that you have no interest in my respect, or your own for that matter.
Your inability to have an adult conversation, however, is pretty damned funny because you would think that maybe at this point in time, responding to me would have become rather boring. Instead of being the broken record and whining about how offended you are, or making inaccurate and stupid assumptions about how much I drink when you don’t know me from a hole in the wall, you could make an actual contribution to this discussion. Kristine, Nati and Scott F. have all made well thought out and valuable points that you could take the time to respond to, yet you seem to prefer harping on a single sentence that I wrote what… a day or two ago.
Perhaps you should take your own advice: “Oh, and if you’re so “angered and/or annoyed” by my comments, don’t read them, it’s as simple as that.”
Personally, I find it rather amusing that you would just prefer playing the injured party because you think it gives you an excuse to call people names from behind a computer screen. How precious.
Nati, again, I appreciate what you are saying here, and I mentioned that I am sure there are people out there in Muslim nations and communities trying to make a positive difference. However, we just don’t see it, and here in the UK, while you see that a lot of Muslims manage to assimilate into society rather seamlessly without compromising their religious beliefs, you see just as many that don’t and have no interest in doing so, which you would think goes against the usual reasons people leave the Middle East.
In response to your point made about a lot of people killing their wives and Christians also being involved in scandal. Yes, you are right, and the point is well taken. It is probably a bit unfair to point the finger, but given the negative views people already have of Muslims, you would think they would work a bit harder to prove that they are just as normal as everyone else, attempt to adapt, and be the first to, as Scott F. said, come out in droves to condemn the actions of those that perpetuate the negative stereotypes. Christians in America do it even though the majority of people in America are Christian (Scott F. had a wonderful example citing abortion clinic bombings), and on a personal level, I can speak for the Cuban community in saying that when a Cuban does something horrible, Miami still goes into uproar mode over it. Why do you think I hate Perez Hilton so much? At some point, yes, you have to have a sense of humor (I love “Scarface” and can poke fun at Cubans as well as anyone). I myself am an immigrant, and as an American in England, I go out of my way to represent my country positively when I am out and about here, or traveling through Europe. I feel that I have to given some of the anti-American sentiments out there. Just as when my parents fled Cuba to America, at a time when there were few Cubans there, they went out of their way to not only learn the language, but show a bit of appreciation for the opportunities they were given. What I am saying is that there is a certain responsibility, unfair or not, for the average Muslim to fight negative stereotypes because given the problems those beards in caves have caused, there are a lot of people out there that do paint them all with the same brush.
Yet, in England just last year, there was a big uproar over the Muslim community wanting to introduce Sharia Law. While some Muslims said, “Oh, hell no, that’s what I was trying to escape when I moved here,” a whole lot more were all for it. Also, Muslim nurses and doctors were refusing to wash their hands beyond their wrists because it would mean pulling up their sleeves, thus endangering the general public with the spread of disease. Well, damn, if you aren’t going to wash up like everyone else, don’t get into the medical field here, right? There is already a big enough problem with infection in hospitals and clinics without this compounding it. Because of that, I have made it a point to only see male doctors since I have been in the UK because as far as I know, that issue has yet to be properly resolved.
We hear very little of the Muslim run humanitarian organizations. As I mentioned before, I realize that there are Muslims involved in fostering a positive image, and even fighting for womens’ rights, but when it all comes crashing down and someone does something horrific, the reactions from the Muslim community can be pretty astounding.
I would like to see a bit more outrage when something happens to taint the reputation of the Muslim community. There’s more to prove. That may not be fair, but the fact is, no one in America or Britain is going to have a Muslim government execute them for standing up and out a bit more in defense of their community. There is no excuse. And quite frankly, within a Muslim country, if you are placidly putting up with abuses and too afraid to speak out or try and do something to change what you don’t like, then what? The reason my family was exiled from Cuba was because they saw beyond their fear despite having seen quite a few family members fall to firing squads. Hell, one of my mom’s cousins had his brains blown out while his children watched because he was only suspected of being subversive. It only managed to make the rest of the family fight the good fight until exile was the only choice left.
Am I making sense, Nati? There is no dispute in agreeing that there are good people in the Middle East. There are good and bad everywhere. The rest of the world just doesn’t see it.
“judge about an entire nation”
awesome. That was supposed to be either “judge an entire nation” or “make assumptions about an entire nation” but I just had to combine them. I misspelled everything else too. I actually wrote “back and force” instead of “back and forth”…that is a new low even for me. Please don’t hold my misspelled semi-literate post against me though, I’m having a major brain fart here – I’ve been playing “Jo-Jo’s fashion show” for 2 days (and nights) in a row trying to beat my own score. I couldn’t. I hate that game now.
Chronic, I just read your post and I understand what you are trying to say. I really have to go to bed, but I just can’t unglue myself from the computer…that f***ing game, man! I bet it was designed by them cave dwellers…a sneaky way to undermine our nation. If the rest of the nation were like me, it would so work.
Nati – I think the problem here is that I’ve failed to convey a very coherent analogy about what I view as the major difference between Muslim nations and Western nations that causes us to (perhaps unfairly, perhaps not) lump the good in with the bad.
Ever notice that most people tend to hate the leaders of western nations and not their people? That’s primarily a result of the fact the we actually have differing views that we publicly express. The reason most of the world hated Bush, but not Americans directly, was because any time Bush said something, it would be immediately followed by a bunch of Democrats disagreeing with him. It gives the perception (rightly so) that we’re all not of one mind, and we don’t all agree with what our leaders do.
That’s simply not present when it comes to the Middle East. You lived there, and I served there in two wars, so I know you know what the score is. Ever watched Palestinian TV? You know, where people in cuddly bunny outfits tell children to kill all the Jews? Where is the ‘moderate’ response to crap like that? Have you EVER seen someone on Al Jazera stop and say, “Whoa! What the hell is wrong with these morons!? They’re telling kids that they should chop the hands off thieves!” I’ve sure as hell never heard them say that. You would think that would be the very FIRST step in trying to maintain an image as you know… a human being?
Like Chronic pointed out about her family in Cuba, you can only sit back and complain about your government and it’s bullshit. Eventually you either need to violently overthrow the bastards (and don’t say it can’t be done, it happens all over the world regularly, in fact, it’s kinda how we got this country in the first place) or you flee to somewhere else. At some point, if nothing changes, and they all remain where they are, don’t you kinda have to assume that they at least kinda support the actions of their leaders? Or that they at least don’t oppose them enough to do something about it?
Like Chronic, I feel very personally connected to this issue. I have a very infamous great uncle that our family would for obvious reasons rather forget, his name was Rudolph Hess. Does that mean we’re all evil? Hell no. The reason most of our family on that side survived the war was because they fled when the Nazis took over. On the other side of the family we had six of our own that fought for the Allies, including one who flew combat missions with George Bush the elder in the Pacific. Two of those sons never returned.
Now what’s my point? That despite the fact the vast majority of my ancestors fought the good fight, that one stain on our ‘good name’ has still weighed very heavily on this family. When I was a kid, my dad was stationed in what was still then Western Germany. I remember him taking my brother and I to tour a concentration camp. He didn’t have to say anything, he got his point across. If ‘good people’ sit around and do nothing while their leaders commit atrocities, they’re not ‘good people’ anymore. They’re complicit in the crimes of those they refuse to defy out of fear.
Nati, go to bed! And don’t worry about the typos. Happens to the best of us and we get the meaning.
Scott F., my stepmother is German, and she and her parents moved to the States in the late 50’s. They had a hell of a time living down that whole WWII thing, though they themselves were shocked and disgusted by Hitler and the SS, and indeed suffered under that regime like most regular Germans did. I can only imagine how much harder it has been having Rudolph Hess as a relation. But yeah, when you have that sort of taint on your family or culture, you have to go out of your way because the perceptions people have, right or wrong, are always going to be simmering below the surface until you take a stand.
Scott F. did say it best, though. If you don’t fight what is obviously wrong with your leaders, strongly condemn it, or get out and away from it and abandon those attitudes they hold, it will be assumed that you are okay with it. And this is pretty much at the root of the problem people have with the Muslim community.
I get English Al Jezeera TV here and it’s scary to watch because rather than condemning some of these atrocities, they downplay them, sometimes attempt to justify them, and ignore the rest. How are we meant to react to that? I always end up changing the channel because I tend to lose a little more faith in humanity with each passing moment I watch. Outside the realm of Al Jezeera, you get a lot more of the same, and the Muslims that live happily assimilated into British culture stand by and say nothing, when if anything,they should be the first to speak out. The few that do get drowned out by apologists.
We go to France every spring and summer to race our car. I speak Spanish fluently and enough German to get by, which is obviously of little help in Northern France. But because I know of the American stereotypes that exist in France, I go out of my way to use the few French phrases I know because when they see that you aren’t automatically expecting everyone to speak English, and that you are trying to communicate in their language, a certain amount of respect is automatically established. So why is it so difficult for someone who actually moves to the States or the UK from the Middle East to even attempt to show a minimal amount of respect for the country that is providing them a safe haven? To be fair, this is not the case with everyone, and that’s something I feel I need to make clear, but those that are showing respect aren’t exactly coming out and encouraging others to do the same in huge numbers when they should be. Almost every immigrant population in the States and the UK has shown some appreciation and respect for the laws and traditions in their new country. But the Muslim population wants to incorporate Sharia Law into their new home. My reaction to that? WTF?
I’m not saying that one should entirely deny their heritage. My family still does a lot of things the Cuban way, as do many other immigrant popluations, and we have made sure that the new kids in the family are bilingual for traditional as well as practical reasons. However, we obey American, or in my case, British law, don’t impose our traditions and beliefs on others, and do not expect the laws, traditions and beliefs in the country where we reside to change for us.
I think it’s quite precious how all you do is complain about Cuba. Cuba this, Cuba that, I’m Chronic Malanga and I’m short and fat and Cuban and I have a drinking problem. Boo hoo.
That’s the best you can come up with, LYTEUP? How sad for you. You have had every opportunity to show that you can contribute something valuable to this thread, and all you can do is continue to type out the weakest playground insults at me? Are you 9? Why don’t you go find a map and look for the Middle East, do a little reading, and then come back and talk to the big people when you have something to offer, you child.
I’m still digesting the attempt to implement a sharia law in UK…what a bunch of morons. I guess in the end it all boils down to what particular Muslim country one lives or has lived in…Some countries truly are stuck in the Stone Age. And not just in the Middle East – some African and Asian countires are stuck in the Stone Age too. The state those countries are in is kinda what the Stone Age would have been like if people had AKs back then. AKs and UZIs.
Just like I said before, the country I was raised in was nothing like that. To me and to the rest of the people in the country I was raised in, the sharia law implementation attempts, honor killings etc. that go on in other Muslim countries and immigrant communities seem as savage and terrifying as they would to anyone else in the civilized world. Unfortunately, when people think “middle East” they don’t dissect it into separate countries (that are completely different from one another), they think of it as a whole region thus painting all Middle Eastern people with the same brush.
Scott, I never knew Palestinian TV existed. Where I was raised, they show some local channels (mostly music and movies, some news, couple dumb shows), the rest is foreign tv – British, French, Turkish, Russian, couple Italian and German channels…They would show some brief fragments of Al-Jazeera programming on the news, kinda like they do here – mostly the cavemen and their promises of jihad. Then the anchorman would mock them – we never even took them seriously before the the 9/11. People would just laugh at them before that, we used to consider them freaks, someone to mock and laugh at. Never have I heard anyone say “Hey, look, those are our Muslim brothers living there in the caves, they look pretty smart, with their beards and the outdoor plumbing that they have, they seem pretty deep too, they might be on to something, let us support them and cheer them on”. pfffttt. Any person with a half a brain, living in a country that is half-civilized would see them for what they are – savage fanatic bastards. Also, the country I was raised in is predominantly Shia, and the cavemen are Sunni, they hate Shia even more than they hate Christians and Jewish people. So their “jihad” is supposed to be fought against the Shia as well, why in the f*** would my people support them? And also, they have learned their lesson with the Chechens. Now this is what truly infuriates and enrages me – the Chechens and their martyr status. They are damn near revered by US media, hailed as “freedom fighters”, “oppressed” etc. But nothing NOTHING could be further from the truth. Sure, the Chechen people have faced great injusticies at the hands of the Russian commies, notably, Stalin. But the ones that are fighting in a war against Russia today are bona-fide terrorists, backed by and sponsored by Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Taliban militants used to fight in Chehnya and the Chechens used to fight for the Taliban. I’m not saying ALL Chechen people are terrorists and savages, but the militants sure are. Anyone who invades a hospital or a school in a neighboring country, holds people (mostly children) hostages and then kills most of them is qualified to be dubbed a terrorist rather than a”freedom fighter”, I think. Anyway, my countrymen felt sorry for the Chechens at the very beggining of the Chechen-Russian conflict (in the 90’s). “Those are our oppressed Muslim Brothers, we have to help” etc. So the crazy ass gov’t started accepting refugees from Chechnya, mostly the militants and their families (the civilian population who really could use some “saving” simply couldn’t get out of the war zone). The oppresed Muslim refugee brothers then invaded the capital city, bought all the most expensive appartments in the city center and turned it into the improvised head quarters. Soon they started kidnapping people, taking them back to Chechnya and holding them for ransom, beating, torturing them, cutting off their body parts (usually fingers) and sending them back to their families. People were terrified to walk the streets in their own capital city. And the bastards were receiving financial aid from other countries too – mostly Saudi Arabia. You could see them waiting in line at their so called cultural center – I used to walk by it almost every day, and they were always there, waiting in line for their money. Finally, some Chechens took people hostage in Russia and, by some strange coincidence, among those hostages were several of my countrymen and, also by some strange coincedence, they were distant relatives of the country’s president. They were released almost right away, but the president still threw all those bastards out of the country, with their embassy and their “cultural center”, much to everyone’s relief. So whoever tells you they are “oppressed freedom fighters” doesn’t know what the f*** he’s talking about. I think I read something about how they are “oppressed” in the New York Times…their hypocrisy is truly legendary. Bashing the Palestinians on one page, defending the Chechens on the next. A terrorist is a terrorist, doesn’t matter what country he’s from or whom he targets.
Nati, the scariest part of the whole Sharia Law thing in the UK was that the Archbishop of Canterbury thought it might not be a bad idea, which caused a huge uproar. People get so cowed by the notion of political correctness that they are willing to shoot themselves in the foot in order to be “culturally sensitive”. That was the WTF moment of the year.
Chronic, so how did the whole thing end? Are they still trying to implement the sharia law or have they given the idea up?
have suffered great injusticies *fixed*
sorry, i’m real tired and sleepy
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece
Nati, your post has not yet appeared in full here, so I only have the first line. The link above is the latest I have been able to find on it, though it dates back to last September. Basically, the UK has Sharia courts now, though they depend on voluntary participation. The whole thing quietly died down after people were calling for the Archbishop’s resignation and we haven’t heard a whole lot since.
This link, below, which I found while looking for more information, was far more disturbing:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
Geez, I go out of town for a couple of days and it gets all Itchy and Scratchy in here.
I still have to wonder: If the people screaming for “diversity” and “tolerance” get their way in the case of the radical Muslims, they themselves will be wiped out. My gay friends who yammer on about tolerance and respect would probably be buried alive or stoned to death if things went as far as they hope. If the extra-spicy God-botherers get their way, you can forget tolerance, diversity, and things like “reproductive freedom”. It just doesn’t seem like they realize that.
And I totally agree with ScottF’s point, that if the moderate Muslims don’t want to be lumped in with the human bombs, they might want to try DENOUNCING them, standing up against them, doing something other than funding them under the table and “tsk, tsk”ing when the whackjobs kill people.
Ah, LYTEUP/Anonymous . . . every village needs an idiot. I’m so glad we have you.
All right, now you’ve digressed into even telling me what to do, Lyteup. Sweet. Don’t even know why I deign to respond to you since you clearly thrive off of childish name-calling and “being different.”
Back to the adult conversation, I just heard on the radio yesterday that one of the lawyers Obama is looking to promote to some higher up position (and ultimately the Supreme Court, which is all I really remember specifically and when I really perked up) believes that the world law should supercede American law, and that Sharia law should be honored in the U.S. And, as I’m typing this, Fox is doing a story on him. His name is Harold Koh and he was a Yale law professor who they’re looking at making legal advisor to the, I think, State Department. Oh, and now the White House and his people are denying that he’s said our judges should look at Sharia law to govern by. BS, plain and simple. Which, goes directly back to the original hypocrisy in this post — someone suggest looking at supposedly Christian or Jewish law (which of course don’t exist in the same manner as Sharia law, but for the sake of the argument…) and the world would be up in arms, and should be.
And I agree, Beige. The hypocrisy in that argument is just laughable (if it weren’t so serious, of course). If we actually let Sharia law rule in this country like this Koh thinks should happen, all these little groups who bitch now about having their “minority rights” violated won’t know what hit them.
I totally agree, Beige and Kristine. And that Koh guy sounds scary as hell. I am going to have to go read up on him when I finish here.
What’s frightening about how it’s gone down in the UK is that after about September, when there was all this uproar over Sharia Law and the Archbishop got told off by almost everyone in the country, it hasn’t been mentioned anywhere, even sensational crap rags like The Daily Mail that love to panic the populace. But apparently, Sharia Law has arrived. And what’s extra insulting, not to mention hypocritical about it is that women are supposedly equal here, but the government is allowing a system that is inherently abusive and unfair to women for the sake of being diverse and pleasing one part of a foreign population. Why? It makes no sense.
Chronic, thanks for the links. Wow…that truly is disturbing. Civil sharia courts today, criminal sharia courts tomorrow…wtf is the British gov’t thinking? Soon they are going to be forcing everyone to participate, anyone who practices Islam or is ethnically a Middle Easterner. I mean, trying to preserve your tradition and culture is one thing, but if you are not willing to consent to the regular British courts, go back to where you came from and sharia-court each other there all you want. I know it can be hard to assimilate in a foreign country, but they are not even trying to do that. Especially considering that no one is trying to make them give up their tradition and culture and become British in every aspect of their lives. They were allowed to come to the UK and live there and have (much) better lives than they did back home, the least they can do is show some gratitude and some respect to the country’s legal system.
You’re welcome!
Exactly, Nati. If you can’t accept the laws of the country you move to, as far as I am concerned, you can get out. I have a feeling, because there are hints of it “in the air” so to speak, that this is going to change, and it might go into the other extreme, which unfortunately, is over the top xenophobia. People here are really getting sick of this crap.
I wish America would wake up and pay attention to the problems England is facing because of this. Americans are so quick to compare Mexican illegals to the Irish/Italian/German/etc. immigrants we had 100-150 years ago, but it’s so different because of what you said, Chronic. You are capable of moving to another country and keeping your way of life and customs (within reason) but you also have to accept that you’ve moved somewhere different. If where you came from was so great, why did you move? Now we’re giving in to every demand everyone has and soon we’re going to end up having the same problems and it’s going to, quite simply, suck.
You are absolutely right, Kristine. If you go to someone’s house for Christmas dinner, you aren’t going to sit there and complain that your host didn’t cook what you usually cook for Christmas, or insist that they replicate what you would do. For that you stay home and do it your way. It’s the same principle on a much bigger and more dangerous level.
It’s going to get worse before it gets better, because I think that when people do wake up on both sides of the pond, there’s going to be a very nasty backlash that goes to the other end of the spectrum. It’s happened throughout history for lesser issues. It’s not a pretty outlook.