Bill O’Reilly might want to explain this before I start stalking and harassing him myself:
Then there’s Bill O’Reilly, who sent one of his producers to creepily stake out, stalk, and harass ThinkProgress writer Amanda Terkel . . . at a conference for victims of rape. O’Reilly was apparently speaking at the conference, and ThinkProgress had the temerity to protest, given that O’Reilly in the past has made the “she was asking for it” argument about a rape victim or two (not to mention that he’s been subject to his own sexual harassment allegations).
The usually reasoned Radley Balko’s claim was so out there that I had to read Terkel’s account for myself and yeah, that’s my jaw on the floor.
In summary, Terkel’s website ThinkProgress.org questioned why O’Reilly was invited to speak at a fundraiser for the Alexa Foundation, which is dedicated to supporting rape survivors, after O’Reilly made controversial comments about what a college student was wearing the night she was raped and killed in 2006.
So O’Reilly responded by sending Jesse Watters, a producer for The O’Reilly Factor, and a cameraman to follow Terkel in a tan SUV as she left Washington for a private weekend vacation. The two men confronted her after following her for two hours to a hotel in rural Virginia and demanded an apology from her for bringing up Bill O’Reilly’s comments about that 2006 rape victim, which included:
“She was 5-foot-2, 105 pounds, wearing a miniskirt and a halter top with a bare midriff. Now, again, there you go. So every predator in the world is gonna pick that up at 2 in the morning.”
Terkel understandably refused to apologize. Honestly, if it had been me, Watters and his buddy would have been lucky not to be maced.
And the truly WTF moment: Watters filmed the whole thing, although the footage has not yet aired. Perhaps because it’s completely in bad taste. (Update: Video can now be viewed here.)
Terkel concludes with this bone-chilling observation:
The main issue remains: O’Reilly should offer an apology/explanation of why, when a woman is raped and murdered, it’s relevant what she was wearing or how much she was drinking. O’Reilly never asked me for a statement nor invited me on his show before sending Watters to harass me. Since I’m a 5 ft, 100 pound woman with an opinion that he doesn’t like, perhaps O’Reilly believes I deserve to be treated this way.
(Thanks to loyal reader Toby for the tip.)
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This guy makes me sick to my stomach. There are no words for the hatred that Bill inspires in the pit of my gut.
She works at Think Progress. She should be harassed. Here’s a sample…
http://thinkprogress.org/palin-digest/
It’s still an active part of their site. Didn’t liberals “win” this time around? How much longer does this go on?
You know I think the world of you, Pasta, but what a red herring. I just can’t back the idea that the political views of a person’s employer should open her up to being followed and intimidated by people who disagree with her.
I enjoy watching Bill O’Reilly, but at times think that he does step over the limit. Now, Glen Beck on the other hand is always on target!
Sorry neither one of those two could exist without the other. They are Yin, and Yang.
Far Left Vs. Far Right shenanigans. O’Reilly is the head-douche… for now.
I thought it over and you’re right. Totally. I just wonder if the same sympathy would be extended to an O’Reilly producer. I’m talking “politics” again….
Maybe not quite the same thing but I liken it to anonymous little me being ferreted out and stalked by PETA because Deceiver’s been pretty hard on their spokespeople. They have ties to domestic terrorists. It’s not really much of a stretch. So you can understand why this freaks me out.
Not on my watch. Just let ‘em try.
Man, I’m too cool.
I don’t think the PETA analogy fits at all, Holly. O’Reilly has a well known pattern of “ambushing” people for his TV show. Part of the qualification for stalking appears to be “obsessive”. A one-time attempt to get an impromptu interview for a television show that frequently airs this type of bit hardly seems obsessive. The reason for targetting the person is not a personal one and certainly not intended to cause any type of physical/psychological harm. Is it a rather stupid tactic? Sure, but I doubt it’s one that’s criminal or they wouldn’t be continually doing it. Since it’s been used on everyone from senators to journalists to celebrities, I think it’s a little bit of a red herring for her to throw in that “Since I’m a 5 ft, 100 pound woman with an opinion that he doesn’t like, perhaps O’Reilly believes I deserve to be treated this way.” She made his tactic seem like it was a gender issue.
If PETA were to stalk you, I doubt it would be so that they could get some impromptu film showing you off guard to put up on their website or a new ad.
Re: echelon- I don’t think O’Reilly’s goons were chasing after her for an interview. There is a difference between running after someone to ‘get the story’ and following someone to their home and demanding an apology. Why would it go on the website either? WOuld O’Reilly be so proud of this he couldn’t wait to show it off? And two big angry men against one girl? Heck I’d be scared, gender issue or not.
And I’d be VERY afraid if PeTA was following me. After seeing what they do to animals, who knows what they’d find excusable to do to a human.
This is the guy that whines and devotes entire segments of his show to the media and paparazzi stalking celebrities and other persons of interest and bitching about how wrong they are to do it… unless it’s him.
I agree Catherine… having Bill stalk me would be almost as scary as having PETA do it.
The idea of someone stalking someone else to harass them over such a heavy subject matter in itself is scary. Does he not get the irony of stalking a small woman in this way? Poor Bill, people disagreeing with him. It’s so hard to be him.
@Pasta: It doesn’t matter if she works for an organization as biased as O’Reilly’s own show or more so. Stalking is really an unnecessary, extremist, inappropriate way to demand answers or discuss a disagreement. If he really felt the need to demand an apology out of her or humiliate her, he simply could have ridiculed her viewpoint on his own show and left it at that.
Seeing how alcohol plays an extremely large part in rape on college campuses it is wise to discuss it when having a conversation on rape.
And no, bringing it up isn’t the same as blaming the victim. That’s a weak argument used to make sure the victim bears zero responsibility. Good in theory I suppose but in real life not so much.
@Hurricane: Discussing it and saying that any guy would’ve taken the opportunity is not the same thing. The actual comment was shockingly insensitive.
I believe I already admitted to being wrong.
I am with Hurricane…Being so drunk you don’t know what is going on will lead to be taken advantage of. Not to blame the Rape victim, or the guy who got pick pocketed, or the mugging victim, or the Drunk driver…
But if you don’t know what is going on around you, bad things happen. That sucks, and definetly does NOT excuse the person taking advantage of you.
That being said, I am all for castration for sexual predators.
And, I am also for drunk girls wearing slutty clothes.
So…let this be a lesson to all of you wanna be cassanovas out there. If you meet a really drunk chick who is really into you, remember this. A Blow Job is really hard to play off as a rape. So go for the blow job. Sex is a bad idea when people have no idea what is going on. No matter what she says, no sex once the tequilia comes out.
Amen JRod
This only happened after Terkel harrassed Alexa Branchini, the daughter of the organization’s founders and a rape victim, to the point where Alexa resigned from her job.
The fact this snivelling little worm calls the waambulance on that big ol’ meanie Bill O’Reilly, playing victim herself, makes it that much more obnoxious. Terkel and other leftist loons like her wouldn’t care if Bill Clinton showed up at this fundraiser. She stepped on Alexa’s throat just to get at Bill O’ Reilly, not caring if she traumatizes a rape victim in the process.
Now THAT’s deception.
If I was her I would have called the police on them , it does not matter her beliefs he has no right to harass her or send people to do it for him. The same way O’Reilly states his opinnion she has the right to do the same.
StrawberryGirl: I did hear that O’Reilly claimed Terkel attacked the Alexa Foundation, but he didn’t provide any proof of this on his show and I haven’t been able to find anything — no video, no transcripts, no blog posts — of Terkel actually criticizing Alexa Branchini or her organization. If you have access to some proof of that happening, though, I’m genuinely interested in reading it.
That isn’t his only “questioning” of sexual assault situations:
On the January 15 edition of Fox News’ The O’Reilly Factor, host Bill O’Reilly said of Shawn Hornbeck — who was abducted at the age of 11, held for four years, and recently found in Missouri — that “there was an element here that this kid liked about this circumstances” and that he “do[esn't] buy” “the Stockholm syndrome thing.” O’Reilly also said: “The situation here for this kid looks to me to be a lot more fun than what he had under his old parents. He didn’t have to go to school. He could run around and do whatever he wanted.” When fellow Fox News host Greta Van Susteren pointed out that “[s]ome kids like school,” O’Reilly replied: “Well, I don’t believe this kid did.” Here is the full article: http://mediamatters.org/items/200701170009
I’m not a big fan of Bill O and have been following the story on Think Progress but what he says is, technically correct. As a woman, you do have to practice common sense. As a parent, I do need to drill that into my kid’s head. Bill needs to choose his words a little better if he really wants to be seen as a champion of women’s issues.
I really hate Bill O’Reilly, but I honestly don’t think the quoted comment is all that outrageous. Sex crime victims cannot and should not be blamed for the crime, but it is a tragic fact that many, many women make themselves more likely to be victims by making bad choices (like dressing provocatively and going out alone at night, accepting a ride from a stranger, or letting a stranger in their house). If you really care about keeping women safe, you can’t object to blunt talk about the unfortunate relationship between these bad choices and victimization.
Also, isn’t it a little hysterical (or cynical?) to call this kind of investigative journalism “stalking” (while stressing Terkel’s sex and physical size)? I mean really.
I can totally object to blunt talk about the unfortunate relationship between these bad choices and victimization. Why? Because there shouldn’t BE any victimization. There is a reason that rape is against the law, and that is because it is freaking wrong, no matter the circumstances. Conversely, it doesn’t matter if a rapist is more likely to go after a provocatively dressed woman than a librarian look-alike (which isn’t fair, because I know some hot librarians, but anyway), he shouldn’t be going after either of them. Telling people to dress like you think a rapist is looking at you is the same as saying there will always be rapists, and I for one believe that it is talk like that that proves to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Anyone, ANYONE, should be allowed to make stupid mistakes and bad choices… unless those bad choices hurt others. Revealing your midriff doesn’t hurt anybody. Raping someone does.
So, I went to the link you gave, Media Matters, and it gives a transcript of O’Reilly’s report. His report was accurate, I guess, except that he doesn’t give the races of the victim and perpetrator. He notes the fatal behavior, i.e. drunkeness, immodest apparel, etc.. That disqualifies him from speaking at a fundraiser for rape victims? That’s hypocrisy?
Side Note: I’ve been looking for a while now and I can’t find what, exactly, he was talking about at the fundraiser. I can’t help but wonder if he was telling the women there how to not be “moronic.”
“I can totally object to blunt talk about the unfortunate relationship between these bad choices and victimization. Why? Because there shouldn’t BE any victimization.”
Try to think like an intellectual, VG, not a 16 year old girl. There shouldn’t be any victimization in the world – but there is. So what should we do – tell girls not to think about what they do, where they go and who they’re with? Or do we tell them the truth?
The idea that women should be treated like children and shielded from common sense discussions about the consequences of their own behavior (or that female political activists need protection from 60 minutes-style confrontations with journalists) is deeply offensive.
Vagrant Dog: It’s like Al Gore telling everyone they should turn off their lights and use less energy then using more energy than the average person.
Rape organizations spend a lot of time trying to convince their clients that their being raped isn’t their fault. So, having someone who has, in the past, blamed a few rape victims for their situations isn’t exactly therapeutic nor would it, usually, fall in line with the visions of most rape relief programs.
Thought I’d share snippets of an email conversation I’ve been having with a commenter named Tara.
Tara sent us this article from Gateway Pundit about how ThinkProgress protesters and Amanda Terkel in particular harassed the founders of the Alexa Foundation at the luncheon where O’Reilly spoke. I was interested in Gateway Pundit’s claim about the protest, so I went back to ThinkProgress to try to find an announcement about it, thinking that if they were going to organize picketing that’s the obvious place they would advertise it.
I found ThinkProgress’s petition against O’Reilly but it makes no mention of a protest. The one news report I found on the luncheon describes an online petition from Concerned Citizens Against Sexual Violence asking the Alexa Foundation to remove O’Reilly as the featured guest, but the article doesn’t mention a physical gathering or any evidence that protesters were present. Even Ellen Augello, the executive director of the Alexa Foundation, characterized it as an “online protest” by CCASV.
I do appreciate the follow-up, though. Attention to detail is one of our readers’ strong suits
Speaking about playing the victim card, glad to that more conservative commenters are saving poor, helpless Bill O’Reilly from the Big Bad Liberal Left.
Interesting question.
OK, long time reader first time responder. These bloggers want their voice to be heard otherwise they wouldn’t blog. Is it stalking to hunt them down for an impromptu interview? My response would be as with all things you need the right opportunity. Asking her questions while she is surrounded by supporters may not be the best time. Anywhoo, it’s easy to blast off on a few sentence blog, but it’s entirely different to be held accountable for your comments when questions are asked. Holly, if Peta was to stalk you for an interview…I would love to hear your responses, the difference is I doubt it would be for just an interview. Probably end up being a viral video of some carnivore getting flour bombed, red paint splattered, etc. Chances are Fox News reporters aren’t gonna rape anyone after doing an interview about rape.
What was O’Reilly cameras investigating by following someone and demanding an apology??
It’s interesting that you mention the 16 year-old girl bit, Wemedge. Y’see, I’m not a teenage girl. By a strange coincidence, I am the older brother of a girl who was sexually molested at 16. For the record, she wasn’t drunk, and she wasn’t dressed provocatively, unless you consider pajamas to be provocative, and the only mistake she made was thinking she was safe at her best friend’s house.
I’m not bringing this up for sympathy. I’m bringing this up to make a point, which is that, for the people affected by rape, considering it as an “intellectual” is incredibly difficult. You may find it offensive that I want to protect others from, as you put it, “discussion about the consequences of their own behavior.” You’re probably right. I’m not sure; it’s hard for me to see anything but a pompous man who would have called my sister moronic, and others defending him by saying that if my sister had just known better, nothing would have happened. Perhaps I would have seen it your way, were it not so personal.
So that might be a conversation killer, and for that I apologize. But I think I’m going to stick to my guns here, and stay an overprotective, offensive lout, and work on getting rid of rapists instead of preparing my other sister or my soon to be born daughter for their inevitability.
Let me get this straight. An extreme left-wing loony hate Bill O’Reilly.
Thats news?
Is there any reason to believe a word this person says after the loony lefts eviseration of Palin and her family?
Not a chance. They are hate mongers. O’Reilly , who are don’t particulary like at all, is a pussycat compared to the HATE peddlers on the left.
THANK YOU Vagrant Dog! It is true that some women are victimized by rapists because they are drunk or dressed provocatively. But quite a few of them are middle aged women, girls who are home alone, or innocent girls who just think midriff shirts look ‘cute’ and are in the wrong place at the wrong time. It’s that kind of language that makes it hell for rape victims- thinking that it’s ‘your fault’ which may or may not be true since we weren’t there. ALthough things are rarely 100% someone’s fault (ie the rapist) I’ll give the rape victim the benefit of the doubt any day until I find out all the facts. I was taught to not dress provocatively or get drunk becasue it’s unsafe but if it does happen, you should be able to, well, not be raped. Of course it’s not a perfect world but still.
“But I think I’m going to stick to my guns here, and stay an overprotective, offensive lout, and work on getting rid of rapists instead of preparing my other sister or my soon to be born daughter for their inevitability.”
I can appreciate your commitment to “getting rid of rapists,” but do you really think it’s a good idea to keep the women you love in the dark about the potential consequences of risky behavior (on the theory that this would be preparing them for the “inevitability” of rape), just in case your rapist elimination plan takes a while to implement? You know, just in case.
Here is WHY I watch O’Reilly. Where the hell else am I going to get information other than the Axis Media talking points that is on EVERY OTHER FREAKIN’ station?
Yes, O’Reilly is a GD GRAND narcissist, yes O’Reilly is a GD demagogue, but AT LEAST he does allow voices, opinions and INFORMATION that not ONE SINGLE OTHER AXIS MEDIA member will permit!
Good job on the article though. Hey but you have to admit, it is fun watching O’REILLY bust NBC’s balls, Immelt’s balls, GE’s balls and Zucker’s balls!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Vagrant Dog: I don’t think anyone is saying that all rape cases should be lumped together as “she should have known better.” Clearly your sister, sad to say, was in the majority where bad shit happens and she was victimized.
However, as a woman when I hear about a sluttily dressed woman wandering the streets of New York alone and so drunk she takes up the offer of a ride from a stranger, I have to stop and think, “What the hell was she thinking?” Women HAVE to take responsibility for their behavior. I would love to live in world without rapists. Hell, I’d love world peace while we’re at it. But in the mean time I’m going to park my car in brightly lit parking lots, take my cell phone with me when I jog and not wander into alleys alone at night or accept drinks from guys I don’t know. And I’ll make sure my daughter knows too. Sure, bad things could still happen but IF they do I want it to be because of circumstances beyond my control; not because I was an easy mark.
“saving poor, helpless Bill O’Reilly from the Big Bad Liberal Left.”
By which, of course, you mean “daring to question an accusation by a member of said loony left rather than blindly accepting their wisdom as absolute truth.”
After all, liberals _never_ defend their powerful politician and media figures from criticism!
Oh, and while trying to think of a comment regarding the whole rape business, an analogy came to mind:
If I won a bunch of money in the lottery and immediately proceeded to get s-faced drunk at a bar while waving the whole fat wad of cash around at everybody, then got mugged while staggering home through an alley by some goons who saw me bragging at the bar, whose fault would it be?
Duh, the robbers of course. But I wouldn’t blame anybody I know for deeming me an idiot for being so irresponsible.
Well if you won the lottery and flaunted it at the local watering hole and then got mugged in an alley, yeah, you’d be a dumbass for drawing so much attention to yourself. But the girl O’Reilly was referring to was a college student with a bare midriff coming home from a party. She wasn’t a stripper or a hooker (not that it’s OK to assault either of those either). She could have been any girl on any college campus on any night of the week.
@ Disco Stu
I’m not suggesting that the “liberal” parts media isn’t biased (clearly not), and it bothers me that neither liberals or conservatives can throw up non-idiots for the discussion. Bill O’Reilly is repulsive to me, but that doesn’t mean I worship at the altar of Keith Olbermann, either. But I’m tired of entertainers like O’Reilly and Limbaugh being the voices of conservative America. And frankly, monikers like “loony left” are part of the problem.
Mainly, I’m just tired of everyone complaining about the slant of the media one way or the other. In an age where you have access to any political agenda you want via the internet, I feel there are bigger victims in the world than anyone who complains their message isn’t being heard in one medium or another. This isn’t a one-newspaper kind of world anymore.
To Wemedge: You’re right, of course. Pretending that rapists don’t exist doesn’t remove the danger. I’m not saying I would approve of my daughter or sister engaging in risky behavior, nor would I neglect to inform them what that risky behavior is. What I AM saying is that I will never believe that if something did happen to them, it would at all be their fault for doing something wrong. I realize that such a black and white view is horribly indefensible, unrealistic, and in many cases untrue. I simply don’t care. It’s that whole lack of an intellectual viewpoint, I suppose.
To Catharine: Um, you’re welcome? I’m not sure of the exact numbers, but at the time the police informed us that most sexual attackers are someone the victim knows, which makes sense in retrospect- rape and its ilk are violent, passionate crimes, and in order to commit them you have to either not care about people (a rarer viewpoint than you might think) or have a lot of emotion invested in your victim. It’s those latter cases that lead to messiness, with the emotional muddying and grief and anger on all sides and people actually coming out and saying it was the victim’s fault, she had it coming, and… It’s a lot easier to just believe that people who do such things are scum. It might not be true every time, but I’m going to pretend it is and sleep at night.
To Kaliska: I personally am going to teach my daughter to kick ass and take names, but that’s simply family tradition and paternal fear talking. My sister also knew how to kick ass and take names, which is why I said she was sexually molested and not raped, and which is why the perpetrator was cuffed with one hell of a black eye and got five years in jail. While I’m at it, I’m going to teach my daughter to wear sensible clothes, to drink at home or with friends, and that all boys have cooties because I really don’t want grandchildren all that much.
Heehee sorry if my over-enthusiastic response scared you Vagrant Dog. I’ll back off now.
@Disco Stu- I don’t think comparing stealing money to a woman’s honor and self-respect is the same thing. But I get what you’re going for. The only thing is, I really don’t think a lot of women expect to be raped, whereas almost anyone would expect to be robbed if they did that. They think that wearing skimpy clothes will only impress some cute guys and rape only happens in New York City in back alley ways. You’re all right, we need to teach our girls to be more aware, no matter how scary it is.
And really I think our society looks at rape the worng way. A lot of time it’s not a crime of passion (she’s cute, I’ll force myself on her and hope she doesn’t remember) it’s a crime of control and force. Imagine how far gone you’d have to be to force a struggling or unaware girl to have sex. It’s cruelty at its worst. We tend to think that the man ‘couldn’t help himself’ but really, he better darn well help himself.
@Pasta: I didn’t actually see that. What kind of ridiculous bleeding heart would I be if I read everything in front of me? Shouldn’t I respond to everything in a passionate rage? ;] (Sorry, bro!)
He blamed Shawn Hornbeck for his own kidnapping and rape saying he loved not having to go to school all those years. He also criticized the boy for having piercings. Though the kidnapper, Michael Devlin, is a pedophile and was only caught when he kidnapped another child, Ben Ownby. He also blamed Shawn for “taunting” his parents through the website they had set up trying to find him. I believe Shawn would reach out to his parents on that website anonymously asking you won’t stop looking for your son will you. He probably said this as his way of reaching out and hoping that his parents wouldn’t stop looking for him. He couldn’t tell them hey it’s me because Devlin had always threatened to kill him and his family if he ever left.
I won’t agree with someone’s methods just because I like their politics. Yes, ambushing for ‘interviews’ is a really douchey thing to do, but a lot of the people on here are right about one thing – people do tend to act like he’s the only one who does it.
I mean, is this or is this not the technique that butterball Michael Moore has based his entire career on? Ambushing people when they pull into their driveway (which is private property, and actually a crime) and screaming at them until he gets a response. I also found it hilarious that the rape activist played the ‘I’m a tiny, defenseless little woman’ card. I thought one of the main psychological problems with rape victims was that they feel like their power has been stripped away from them? That’s a good, empowering message their ‘advocate’ had for them there.
“the HATE peddlers on the left”
well, excuse me…
this guy is on my list of people to kick in the crotch if i ever met him in public.
I think it is a mistake to just turn this into another left vs. right thing. You just don’t go around stalking people, no matter who you are, no matter who they are, especially when you criticize others for doing the same, which Bill has done in the past.
As for the comment about women deserving it if they dress a certain way, I’m just going to add my two cents and cut out of this thread.
No one, male or female, should be irresponsible when they drink. If you are going to get sloshed to the point where you have no idea who or where you are, you do it at home or while surrounded with people you trust, though honestly, I don’t understand the point in getting that drunk because that’s when it ceases to be fun. That doesn’t mean for a minute that you deserve to get raped, robbed, or otherwise taken advantage of, though, and anyone that does take advantage of a person in such a vulnerable state is fully responsible.
A woman who dresses provacatively has the right to do so as long as she is not breaking any indecency laws, and she has the right to do so without abuse. Simple as that. It is not an inviitation to be raped as some would attempt to argue.
As was already pointed out, women get raped regardless of what they are wearing a lot of the time. There’s never an excuse for it.
I have obviously wandered into the wrong site – if i wanted to waste my time with this left versus right garbage i would go to Fox or MSNBC. Long story short, O’reilly does this a lot and ive never seen it described as stalking when the target is a female. Also, saying that the way a woman dresses may play a part in her being targeted is not incompatible with thinking that rape is bad and its victims deserve support from things like the Alexa foundation.
@Scott F.: It’s true about Moore. It’s happened to my uncle, actually, who tried to make light of it by complaining about the way his bald spot was emphasized rather than the actual abrasiveness of his methods.
How did this douchebag avoid being a Deceiver Madness contender? Was he that quiet in 2008?
Vagrant dog…You are right, rape should never happen. And neither should Murder, or theft or any number of crimes. But you won’t see me running around naked through Watts with $100 bills taped all over my body.
But Why not? People shouldn’t attack me or steal my money.
But they do.
That being said, I could also be attacked and robbed in Beverly Hills wearing Jeans and a T-shirt at noon.
But one of these senerios is easier to predict/prevent than the other, don’t you think?
And PS – “Telling people to dress like you think a rapist is looking at you is the same as saying there will always be rapists, and I for one believe that it is talk like that that proves to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.”
There will always be rapists.
Some good points made by everyone, IMHO. Bill O’Reilly is not my favorite guy, but I do think he serves a purpose, and not just as a cautionary example. I do think he comes across as obnoxious, and certainly ambush-interview tactics are obnoxious, but as ScottF said, it’s not like O’Reilly patented this approach. It’s pretty pathetic that this person is hiding behind the “I’m a teensy tiny widdle pwincess” when she’s supposed to be the Empowerment Fairy, but whatever.
There is a HUGE difference between advising girls and women on what to avoid doing or wearing, in order to minimize their status as targets, and blaming them for their own victimization. If what you really want is to train someone on how to be safe, it’s simply common sense to acknowledge that certain behaviors will increase risk. As for the fact that “there shouldn’t BE any victimization”, well, that’s true, but you can be righteously indignant, or you can be safe, but usually, the two don’t intersect. You don’t stand in front of an oncoming locomotive (paging Dr. Freud!) and argue that it should stop for you, because it won’t, even if you really, REALLY want it to. So you get out of the way, and take your unharmed, still-breathing self somewhere safe, where you can be indignant all you like. I learned this lesson the hard way myself, and not with a train.
That said, I’m teaching my sons to respect any and every instance of “No” they hear, even if it’s during playtime and involving Lego, so that they’ll be well-versed in accepting “No” when they hear it in a more-mature context, later in life.
Apparently.
C’mon Jrod you know you’ve done that. I call that Thursday
I don’t know if this story is already considered dead or not, but I found a link to O’Reilly airing the seeming “stalking interview” in question. It doesn’t seem nearly as antagonistic or predatory as she described. Granted, that’s all part of editing.
http://www.papamiket.com/?p=16500
The accompanying article again claims that there was a protest and it was disturbing enough that Alexa Branchini resigned as a result. Although I don’t see any supporting evidence for that claim.
Here is a website with contact info for the It Happened to Alexa Foundation
http://www.ithappenedtoalexa.org/contact.html
If anyone feels like trying to get an actual statement from them regarding her resignation.
Echelon — that Papa Mike link reprints the Gateway Pundit post I examined above (see comment #29).
@Holly — whoops. Sorry for the double post then. I still am curious if the Alexa foundation will make a statement.
“Telling people to dress like you think a rapist is looking at you is the same as saying there will always be rapists, and I for one believe that it is talk like that that proves to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.”
I agree that people shouldn’t be told to dress like they think a rapist is looking at them, but [i]of course[/i] there are always going to be rapists. There will always be rapists, there will always be murderers, there will always be all types of criminals because there will always be people with anger, greed, hatred, and either little self-control or a sense of entitlement. Could the number of rapists greatly decrease? Yeah, but hoping for a world with absolutely no rapists is a waste of time. It’s just not going to happen. The best people can do is do whatever they can to prevent rape from happening and then get rapists locked up if it happens anyway.
A wise man hopes for the best and prepares for the worst.
I have never claimed to be wise.
O’Reilly really is a special brand of ass. Stewart did a hilarious segment on exactly this. It’s worth a look:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090223/oreilly_video
“people do tend to act like he’s the only one who does it.” -Scott F.
…and if they did what O’Reilly’s sycophants did, they should be called out as well. It doesn’t make what O’Reilly did any less wrong.
Amanda Terkel consciously misrepresented O’Reilly’s discussion on his radio show and took his comments out of context of the entire discussion. O’Reilly was not blaming the victim. He was pointing out some very bad choices that she made to warn other young women of the dangers of going to the big city and getting so drunk that you make bad decisions.
The fact that anyone would take Stewart seriously is beyond me. Let me think of all the things that Bill Maher has said that was so wrong and yet faced very little backlash for his nasty words. I shudder with the fact that I use to date a Bill Maher cause I hated to call him by his name.
I used to like Bill Maher, but somewhere along the line he became a nut. Too bad.
Eh, Bill Maher is merely a life support system for a nose and an ego.
I’m pretty sure the reason that this woman brings up her side and gender is because I’m pretty sure that people would be a little more wary to follow a 6′5, 275 pound man in his car for 2′5″ and then shout at him aggressively.
And speaking as someone who was gang raped at the age of 10, the rape apologism happening in this comments thread is appalling. The cash analogy doesn’t wor. My body is not a wallet or a wad of cash.
Why don’t we counsel men on what they can do to prevent rape? Maybe we can tell men that they should try drinking less at parties, so they can be more observant to help their female friends. Or we can tell them that they shouldn’t encourage men to hit on women after they say no at bars, or raise men to respect women as equals and not public property. I’m pretty sure that telling the women to stop getting raped isn’t very helpful. Should we tell women to stop joining the army? Rape is epidemic in the army right now. Should we tell women that it’s probably a good idea if they avoid going to school? Rape is very high in frat situations. Maybe if women just stay home, they can avoid being raped. Oh, wait. The vast majority of rape is done by a trusted friend. Maybe women shouldn’t talk to men?
er, typo. Two and a half hours, not 2′5″
“The fact that anyone would take Stewart seriously is beyond me.” -angry army wife
People have their tastes. But however you feel about Stewart, he’s clearly skilled at pointing out a few things that would otherwise be ignored. Just watch the video I linked. He clearly busted O’Reilly on his hypocrisy (and in a pretty entertaining fashion). Just because you may not like him doesn’t make what he showed in the video any less true.
His interview with the “Mad Money” host was pretty interesting to watch as well.
O’Reilly, Olbermann, Stewart — they are all entertainers. They’re not journalists. The problem is when their fans believe what they’re offering is news. If you don’t take their schticks with a grain of salt the size of a minivan, you’re hopeless.
C, I’m sorry (and that is not sarcasm) for what was done to you. (I don’t say “what happened”, because tornadoes and zits happen, rape is perpetrated.) But cool your jets a minute. Nobody is interested here in blaming the victim. If you’re paying attention, and surely you are, you’ll see that several posters have made the point that it isn’t an issue of blame (for the victims/survivors). Rather, the goal is education and prevention.
Pardon me for another flawed analogy, but here goes. I hate spiders. ANY spider. But there are some that can really mess you up. If you know that keeping cardboard boxes around attracts brown recluse spiders, and thus increases your risk of being bitten and suffering a necrotizing wound, you can avoid doing so. It doesn’t mean that it’s your FAULT if a spider bites you, nor does it mean you deserve it. It was the spider that bit you–you didn’t “tease” it or “ask for it”. But forewarned is forearmed.
Teaching girls to hate men and boys won’t do much good; it simply adds to the suspicion and mutual disrespect between genders, which presumably ups the risk for the attitudes among men that can lead to assaults. There’s nothing wrong with teaching girls to be very careful about drinking and staying in control of their faculties, not because it’s their fault if they get raped, but because by doing so, they can take some control and help avoid the attacks in the first place.
This is the weirdest thing I have heard in a while btw. Following somebody for 2 hours. To make them apologize. And to whom? O’Reilly wasn’t there…And for what? For repeating his insulting appauling rape excusing/rape justifying comments he shouldn’t have made in the first place? She should have called the cops on them. Or beat them with some heavy object. If you are 5 ft 100 lbs and are being followed and harassed by two pigs twice your size you have the right (if not an obligation) to pick up smth heavy.
If the ultimate goal is prevention and education, why is it all focused on girls? Why do we need to police our daughters and sisters actions? The only thing that will get you raped is the presence of a rapist.
Oh for the love of little green frigging apples. It is focused on girls BECAUSE THEY’RE THE ONES WHO USUALLY GET RAPED. You might as well ask why it’s women who are always being urged to do breast exams. It isn’t “policing”, it’s INFORMING. But by all means, twist everything around, if it helps to go full-bore nutjob.
If you’re that determined to assert that women have no control, no responsibility for themselves, move to an all-female community, or start one. But be prepared: Women can be dickwhistles, too.
See, that’s the thing: we say it like this. Girls get raped. As if it’s a passive act. It’s also probably about as effective as running a campaign called ‘don’t get hit by drunk drivers’. There is no way to 100% avoid rape. The only thing that will get you raped is the presence of a rapist, and they don’t wear signs.
“There is no way to 100% avoid rape.” Yeah, there’s no 100% guarantee you won’t just randomly get cancer, but does that mean you shouldn’t worry about the effects things like smoking might have on your chances? I used to help a friend teach a woman’s self defense class at the local YMCA, and the statistics don’t lie. Women who prepare for the possibility, who take the time to look at their surroundings, avoid certain areas and actions that might make them a more attractive target, and most importantly, who are prepared properly to defend themselves, are FAR less likely to be the victim of a sexual attack.
“why is it all focused on girls? Why do we need to police our daughters and sisters actions?”
Well, because telling the potential rapist it’s wrong DOESN’T WORK. If someone is so far gone morally that they will rape a woman, sitting them down in a class and telling them it’s wrong won’t do a damn thing. Gee, the fact that you do very serious jail time for it, the endless PSAs, the billboards, the health classes, ect. didn’t get it across already?
The greatest risk to these women is exactly the kind of ‘perfect world’ bullshit you’re propagating. Far too many women admit after the fact that they just didn’t believe it could ever happen to them – why? Because people like you think it’s wrong to prepare them simply because it MIGHT not work. There is no 100% way to avoid rape, but like I’ll tell my daughter when she’s old enough, a gun and a black belt sure help your odds.
I guarantee you, a woman who walks around thinking she can’t get raped because she has a right not to be, makes a better target than a woman who can and will break her foot off in someone’s ass.
And I took pains above to state that it IS NOT a matter of women “getting raped”, because rapes are perpetrated; they’re not like frizzy hair or gravity.
If what so-called “women’s advocates” REALLY want, instead of a chance to whinge over how “evil” men are, is truly to empower women–and I HATE that word, but whatever–then the first thing to get over is the attitude that “You can’t do that, it’s wrong and I’m a girl and you can’t”, because if the circumstances are right, yes he CAN, never mind that it’s wrong and unfair, and don’t you wish you had some means of preventing this, and boo hoo?
“Women who prepare for the possibility, who take the time to look at their surroundings, avoid certain areas and actions that might make them a more attractive target, and most importantly, who are prepared properly to defend themselves, are FAR less likely to be the victim of a sexual attack.”
You can do everything right and still get raped. And besides, some of the thing that increase your chance of rape are:
-going to a college or university
-joining the Army
-having male acquaintances, friends, coworkers, bosses (stranger rape is not the norm. It’s rape that happens in your home or by someone you know and trust)
-working in a male dominated field
Should we discourage women from taking these actions as well? Is it irresponsible if they don’t?
“Well, because telling the potential rapist it’s wrong DOESN’T WORK. If someone is so far gone morally that they will rape a woman, sitting them down in a class and telling them it’s wrong won’t do a damn thing. Gee, the fact that you do very serious jail time for it, the endless PSAs, the billboards, the health classes, ect. didn’t get it across already?”
In my health class, we didn’t cover rape at all. And rape is barely convicted at all. In fact, bringing your rapist to trial is a nightmare. Read up on WHY the Alexa Foundation was created, for instance, and the circumstances that Alexa had to go through to take her rapist to trial successfully. Even then, jurors are hesitant to convict a rapist. The rape conviction rate is the lowest of any violent crime. When I reported my rape to my teacher, she told me I was lying and that ‘boys would be boys’ and if I wanted to hang out with male friends, I should expect roughhousing. When I was groped by an older man on the train, other people uncomfortably looked away and left me to deal with. I’ve also only seen one anti-rape PSA in my life, not counting Sonic the Hedgehog telling me if an adult touched me in a bad way to tell an adult.
“If what so-called “women’s advocates” REALLY want, instead of a chance to whinge over how “evil” men are, is truly to empower women–and I HATE that word, but whatever–then the first thing to get over is the attitude that “You can’t do that, it’s wrong and I’m a girl and you can’t”, because if the circumstances are right, yes he CAN, never mind that it’s wrong and unfair, and don’t you wish you had some means of preventing this, and boo hoo?”
I don’t think my argument was ever ‘grrl powerz lols’, it was ‘the onus of preventing a crime is on the perpetrator, not the victim.’
And my point was that (as ScottF said) in an ideal world, the onus WOULD be on the rapist, but that is not how it works. In an ideal universe, there would be no crime whatsoever, but there is, because criminals do not care how you feel or what rights you have. They want what they want, and it’s up to you or me to stop them from taking it from us. That applies to property crime as well as violent crime like rape.
Look: I was assaulted, too. I didn’t tell anyone in my family about it for about a month, and when I did tell a family member, over the phone, she hung up on me and later accused me of lying. That’s neither here nor there, but I wanted you to know that I am not looking down my nose at you for having been attacked. I simply do not believe for a moment that being aggrieved helps prevent attacks. Being prepared does. Period. But you seem to be willfully ignoring the fact that (literally and metaphorically) locks only keep out honest people. Yeah, rape-awareness and prevention training are great things for men, but someone who’s intent on raping a woman is not going to be affected by such measures. At all. Ever. The onus then falls on the woman to stop him, unless all she really wants is to play sad martyred victim.
I’m pretty sure that isn’t really what you want.
You know, we’ve clogged up this thread enough, and I think we both agree on the important things.
@ C.
I can’t site anything specific for you right now, but rapists are predators. And most predators do not want to get hurt when they’re going in for the kill. The whole point of women’s self defense class is to make women who take them less attractive targets. I don’t remember which news source it was that had interviewed a serial rapist, and he straight up said he avoided targeting women who were holding umbrellas or other objects that could be used as a weapon. What he really wanted to find a woman who wouldn’t put up much of a fuss at all. I bet if you had smacked that man on the train so hard that his head was spinning, he would not try again, and no one would have blamed you. Being a woman in the Army, I will say this. Most of the rape cases I learn about has been attributed to all parties putting themselves in bad situations. Soldiers going out and getting completely smashed so their judgement is completely impaired. There are also those cases where the girl did everything right like you said, and bad things happened. However, on the same token, I’ve also noticed that the women in this environment who project themselves as someone who won’t accept that type of behavior are not the ones who get targeted. The last time someone pinched my rear end, I gave him a dead arm. And my dad who wants the best for me, gave me a Tasr for Christmas. That’s a good Dad!
This here just made my day…well, what’s left of it:
http://www.wlwt.com/cnn-news/19028262/detail.html#
At least this 1 got what was coming to him.
Good for Ms. Friday. I do wonder why she let the other guy go, however, if all her friends were along. Was it racially motivated?
No, Beige, I don’t think so. It appears, they just couldn’t catch him, he ran off into the woods. I watched the video in which she tells in detail about the burglary and her chasing the burglars. She says the burglars ran into the woods, she ran after them but couldn’t catch them so she told her friends to bring the car around. At one point she and her friends had to get out of the car, because the car just wouldn’t go through there. She then ran after the burglars. I guess she grabbed whomever she could catch and the other one just got away. Hell, I’m surprised she caught one. lol You want her to tackle two men at the same time? She said it wasn’t the first time they were at her house, her home was burglarized before and there was an ongoing investigation, but the police didn’t have any leads. She said it was the same guys, because they said so when she was chasing them, they said “You are never home, so we come in” or something like that. The nerve of those assholes! The woman is in college and has to support two children!
I know exactly how she felt, I used to live in this crazy ass barrio on the outskirts of Newark, my place was burglarized two times. I came home one day only to see that I have no back door anymore. They didn’t just pick the lock or break the door – the door was gone, it was torn out and carried away. I came home from work (and I was working mad hours back then, so I was never home, just like Ms. Friday) to the gaping hole in the wall. And the place was a mess, everything was upside down, all the closets were ransacked, all the drawers were on the floor…I was 7 mo pregnant at that point, I’m still surprised I didn’t give birth right then and there after seeing what was done to my home. These junkies, they come in, they take EVERYTHING, just like Ms Friday said – games, DVDs, playstation, camera…hell, they even took my CDs
and I <3 my music. 
Police never found them. So I know exactly how Ms. Friday felt – you bust your ass at work and you come home to this. If I could catch those assholes, I’d beat them in the face too.
Don’t get me wrong, Nati–I’m proud for her, that she pounded that one as well as she did. He looked like he’d gotten a Muay Thai beatdown. Just wondered b/c of the “You can get away” remark. I bet (and hope) that everybody who’s ever been robbed is lining up to buy her dinner and shake her hand. This is almost as good as the father who recently strangled (?) a sexual offender he found in his teenage daughter’s room.
Beige, “You can get away” remark was taken out of context. Seemed odd to me at first, too. That article just wasn’t very well written. When you watch the video in which Ms. Friday explains everything in her own words, it makes a lot more sense. They couldn’t catch the other one and as he was running away from them she shouted at him “Okay, you can get away, but this one isn’t going anywhere”. It’s not like she caught him, then said “Oh, okay, you can get away” and let him go.
And wow@the father strangling a sex offender. That father is my hero. When (and where) did it happen? This is the first time I’m hearing about it, I miss all the good stuff
That rapist got what was coming to him, just like that burglar. About the time the private citizens took matters in their own hands because all our police seems to be doing is stuffing their faces with donuts they buy with our taxpayer money. Which brings us to the point you’ve made earlier – it’s important for us to know how to defend ourselves and it’s better to be prepared. For anything.
Are you all aware that Ellen Augello and the IHTA foundation has invited Bill (blame the victim) O’reilly back for their fundraiser this March?
Perhaps a picketing is in order. Lets get this on the evening news!
Save the Date!
Bill O’Reilly from “The O’Reilly Factor” will be the Keynote Speaker, Friday, March 26, 2010 at the Mar-a-Lago Club, Palm Beach Florida.