A Focus on the Family employee just got busted, To Catch A Predator style, after propositioning a district attorney investigator he believed to be a 15-year-old girl.
Juan Alberto Ovalle, hereby known as “that idiot,” faces two felony charges of attempted sexual assault on a child and Internet luring. When he’s not using graphic language to seduce a child, he narrates “a popular audio version of the Bible in Spanish” and produces a radio program for Focus on the Family, a religious and political extremist organization that likes to call gay people perverts.
I’m not going to reprint what that idiot said because this is not that kind of site, but if you’ve ever wondered what a would-be child rapist sounds like reading the Bible, you can click here to listen to his recording of the Corinthians passage that condemns unlawful fornication.
As Queerty.com points out, none of what Ovalle said to the girl he was trying to get with falls under Focus on the Family’s guidelines on how to talk about sex with your kids. Just in case you were going to take that idiot’s expert suggestions.
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How sick.
These sorts of organizations tend to attract those sort of people, though.
I’m sure this is going to turn into some huge argument I don’t want to even get into, but I’m not sure Focus on the Family counts as a “political extremist” organization. What this individual did was incredibly disgusting and hypocritical, and he should be punished like all other perverts. No defending there at all. But “extremist” by definiton means their positions are far from mainstream… and given that California, one of the most liberal states in the union, turned down gay marriage (and no other state can seem to pass it either, only the courts), I’m not sure you can say it’s a position that far removed from the mainstream. Westboro Baptist Church? Whole other ball of wax.
Religious fundies always make the best hypocrites.
Dang, Kristine, you and I are pretty much on the same sheet of music today. I’m not sure how F0tF’s position on homosexuality automatically translates to being okay with pedophilia.
However, I do think Ovalle needs to be under a jail somewhere for about life plus 50.
Yeah, I don’t agree with Focus on the Family by any stretch of the imagination, but I wouldn’t call them an extremist organization. Maybe if they thought, like, gay people should all be executed or something.
FotF has more on its agenda than just banning gay marriage, though. They are actively against homosexuality, period, and their Love Won Out program is one of the biggest in the ex-gay movement. They are also anti-gambling, anti-abortion, anti-feminism, anti-pornography, pro-creationism, and anti-sexual activity outside of the bonds of marriage. Combined, their public policy positions are pretty fringe.
“They are actively against homosexuality, period, and their Love Won Out program is one of the biggest in the ex-gay movement. They are also anti-gambling, anti-abortion, anti-feminism, anti-pornography, pro-creationism, and anti-sexual activity outside out of the bonds of marriage. Combined, their public policy positions are pretty fringe.”
I’d say only the creationism and “ex-gay” parts are “fringe.” As for anti-feminism, I can’t call that one because I don’t know what they’re defining feminism as.
I guess I always thought groups are “extremist” when they blow things up or light them on fire. Or kill puppies and kitten then throwing their bodies in dumpsters. Yeah, I don’t agree with Focus on the Family but they don’t commit acts of violence (as far as I know).
I say hang him by his balls and flog him to death. Anyone who lures a child or tries to harm a child, sexually or not needs to be eaten alive by fire ants or flogged hanging upside down.
Why are these sick and twisted people so attracted to the Religious Right?
Actually, I don’t think this counts as hypocritical so much as an innocent misunderstanding. Ovalle just had an entirely different Focus on the Family than the rest of the organization (I hope)– he focused on the children. Really, this would all have been cleared up right away if they put a question like, “Are you a pedophile? Y/N” on the application forms.
@LurkingWoman Because that’s where you find the largest number of young and innocent children? What scares me about these kind of stories is that apparently the success rate for propositioning underage people via the Internet is high enough that people like this actually think it’s worth the risk that they might be talking to law enforcement.
Apparently I’m fringe. Whee!
Hope the idiot gets what’s coming to him, though.
I have to agree that I think being peacefully against certain things doesn’t make a religious and political organization extremist, it makes them religious and political.
Also, I honestly think that the Religious Right doesn’t attract these sickos any more than other movements do. The problem is that when a group claims to have a high moral standard any hypocrites in that group are going to draw a lot more attention and bad press than someone would be in say the adult film industry.
Echelon and TheIrish, you have good points. It’s just that the pedophiles I hear about tend to proclaim religious ‘morality’ and superiority. And remember Gov. Larry whatshisname? He may not be a pedophile, but he sure is twisted, and still in denial.
Well… what better place for a hypocrite to be, right? At church. People go to church because they know they have problems and they’re looking for help with them. Just because they’re at church, or in this case working with a christian organization, doesn’t mean that all of their problems magically go away though. They’re still human beings that have the same temptations, and problems, as everyone else. The difference is, though, that they’re trying to live by a higher standard. That means, though, that if/when they fall, it’s from a much higher height.
So, I’m not saying what he did was ok, and I think he needs to be punished the same as everyone else. I don’t think, however, just because he reads the bible it doesn’t mean he can’t make a stupid mistake.. just like everyone else.
And by the way, FOTF is by no means an “extremist” organization! Given that an extremist is “one who advocates or resorts to measures beyond the norm”, and that 75% of US citizens claim to be “christian”, it would seem unlikely that a mainstream christian organization could be considered extremist. Going by the numbers, anyone who disagrees with FOTF is actually an extremist.
There once was a guy named Ovalle
Who claims we’re all going to hell
But the Bible forbids
Propositioning kids
So he bids his freedom farewell
@Justin:
I’m going to back Holly on this one. Sure, 75% of the population is Christian, but FotF espouses an extreme fundamentalist perspective on Christianity. I am skeptical that 75% of the population are young-earth Creationists, believe that gambling is a sin, and that homosexuals need to be reeducated. And it’s this hardline view of morality that makes the members’ behavior all the more hypocritical. When a member of NAMBLA gets arrested, nobody bats an eye, but if the arrestee is a member of a group whose entire viewpoint is based on a vision of morality as imposed by God, that’s hypocritical.
“People go to church because they know they have problems and they’re looking for help with them. Just because they’re at church, or in this case working with a christian organization, doesn’t mean that all of their problems magically go away though.”
Yeah, I agree, I think a lot of them think some official proclamation of religion will make them able to stop. Like with gay guys who get married because they think it’ll make them stop being attracted to men.
I don’t think I’d necessarily characterize Focus on the Family as a mainstream Christian organization either, and 75% of the country being Christians doesn’t mean they agree with FotF on everything. (For example, while the Catholic Church considers gay sex to be a sin, they do believe that gay people are born with that sexual orientation and aren’t able to change.)
Sick and twisted people are attracted to all sorts of things. This is just one of them.
“Like with gay guys who get married because they think it’ll make them stop being attracted to men.”
Hey, it worked for me. Except, I’m not a gay guy and my marriage wasn’t official…it was more of a common law kinda thing that quickly fell apart…but I stopped being attracted to men.
I think that this organization is frightening, personally, but I don’t think it’s about the organization, or those like it as much as it is about the people they do attract that think that if they align themselves with something so counter to what they are, they will never get caught. I’m not claiming that being against what these organizations stand for (and I am), makes a person somehow bad or moral, but the people who have something to hide tend to hide in that sort of setting so that they can imagine themselves above suspicion. Look at all the televangelist scandals of the 80s and 90s, people like Larry Craig, and the Catholic priests that molest kids. They aren’t doing it because they are over the top Christian, Republican, or Catholic. They are doing it because by blowing a moral trumpet, people will be less likely to notice what else they are blowing.
EDIT: moral should be immoral
I can’t type. You all know this.
So let me get this straight, being labeled Fringe is supporting the Bible that most modern Christians read and use as a religious text? Sorry Holly but even my being an Atheist sees that you just labeled every Modern day Christian as a Fringe Movement member.
Thank God for Christians. Because of them I get Sunday off this week.
Toby- “I’m going to back Holly on this one. Sure, 75% of the population is Christian, but FotF espouses an extreme fundamentalist perspective on Christianity. I am skeptical that 75% of the population are young-earth Creationists, believe that gambling is a sin, and that homosexuals need to be reeducated.”
That’s exactly right Toby! …well, part of it. 75% of americans say they’re christian, but most of them have absolutely no idea what being a christian is. To most, christianity is basically equated to being an american.. they’re american, so they’re christian. Or, when they do go to church, once or twice a year, it’s to a christian church, so that makes them christian. FOTF does not espouse and extreme fundamentalist perspective on christianity, it just espouses a fundamental one. Just because they hold that the bible is true, and actually means what it says, that makes them extremists? You’re right when you say most people/christians don’t agree with FOTF, because many “christians” and non-christians, don’t beleive what the bible says. That doesn’t mean, though, that those who do are extremists.
And Tal- “I don’t think I’d necessarily characterize Focus on the Family as a mainstream Christian organization either, and 75% of the country being Christians doesn’t mean they agree with FotF on everything. (For example, while the Catholic Church…”
There is much difference between many catholics and christians. Not that catholics can’t be christians, but lumping them all into the same group doesn’t necessarily work. Catholics also beleive in praying to saints, confession (to a priest), purgatory, the apocrypha, etc. Those are all beleifs/practices that go against christianity in a big way. So, is FOTF a mainstream christian organization? I would say yes, it is for christians. It may not be for catholics, but their worldview is going to be different, as is their entire religous structure.
I think God is the one who decides who’s a real Christian. That’s what I was taught, anyway. I am ABSOLUTELY the worst example of a believer out there–for example, my language sucks and I have anger issues–but I’m trying. Most of the time I thoroughly and utterly screw it up, but still.
That probably means I’m a hypocrite, too. Crap.
Catholics are still Christian. They were the originals when you don’t count other groups they supressed and wiped out in the early days. Christianity at it’s foundation requires a belief in Jesus being the son of God dying for our sins, blah blah blah, resurrection, etc… The modern non-Catholic Christian is here because they protested much of what the Catholic church was doing and are called Protestants for that reason (see Martin Luther and all the stuff I’m not awake enough to get into now). I just had to say that because people tend to assume that Catholics are not centered on Christ, when in fact, they are. Praying to saints is not the focus of Catholicism, and that prayer is meant to be conveyed to God through Jesus and probably an email (unless it’s Lent). Yeah, I used to be Catholic, can you tell? I’m going to bed now.
Give me a break! Focus on the Family is certainly misguided on several items, and I’m no cheerleader of theirs (particularly in their views on women’s roles in family and society), but they clearly are not an extremist group. There are many Americans of different faiths who think gambling and pornography are wrong because of their harmful effects on people. And a large number of Americans are pro-life. What concerns me here is an impulse to label any religious or conservative group as “fringe” and “extremist.” The piece of crap who propositioned a young girl is the deceiver in this story … but I’m glad it made it convenient for you to dismiss a cultural group you disagree with. Deceiver is usually a clever, entertaining site, and I respect that you don’t discriminate in your slams, but please leave your political agenda out of this.
“There is much difference between many catholics and christians. Not that catholics can’t be christians, but lumping them all into the same group doesn’t necessarily work. Catholics also beleive in praying to saints, confession (to a priest), purgatory, the apocrypha, etc. Those are all beleifs/practices that go against christianity in a big way. So, is FOTF a mainstream christian organization? I would say yes, it is for christians. It may not be for catholics, but their worldview is going to be different, as is their entire religous structure.”
I think you’re confusing Christianity with Protestantism, something many potestants do without realizing it.
Christianity is any religion based upon the teachings of Christ who is named Messiah as foretold in the Jewish Old Testament. Most (if not all) of Christianity uses the New Testament as their primary source, but sects may differ on which books to include in their New Testaments.
From there, you can subdivide Christianity into Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, and an odd-ball category which includes unique groups like Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witness as well as extinct sects like the Cathars and Gnostics. Odd-ball sects aren’t necessarily odd, they just don’t fit precisely into the other 3 categories.
Born Again or Fundamentalist Christians (mainly composed of Adventist, Apostolic, Baptist, Nazerine, Evangelical, and Free Methodists) often shorten their title to Christian, but just because they have co-opted a term doesn’t change the blanket meaning of Christian for any Christ based religion.
You also can’t say FOtF is supported by all Protestants (you used “Christians”) because the Anglican/Episcopalian, some Lutherans*, and United Methodist Churches differ with them on much of FOtF’s platform.
*I believe the Missouri Synod of Lutheranism is more liberal than Wisconsin or Evangelical Synods in regards to homosexuality and gambling. Someone step in and correct me if I have them confused.
Yeah, people need to understand that the little inconsistencies in Catholicism (like that whole praying to Saints thing, despite the whole ‘Jealous God’ shtick in the Commandments saying we should stick to Numero Uno) are due to when and where it originated. Prayer to Saints was a way of placating the polytheists (which was the vast majority of the Romans they were trying to convert) who simply couldn’t grasp that a single deity was responsible for every aspect of life. There is a lot of evidence that the Trinity was adapted for similar reasons. The Catholic church routinely found it easier to co-opt pagan beliefs than to destroy them. Sick of December 25th being used by pagans to celebrate the solstice? Make it the day Christ was born.
Now I feel the need to point out that I do consider myself a Christian – simply one who is willing separate the ‘human element’ of the religion from the dogma. I certainly don’t see most of the stories in the Bible as anything more than morality tales (beyond obvious historical figures like Jesus and Moses) to help us live our lives by. Obviously I disagree with Focus On Family’s literal interpretation of the Bible, especially where it pertains to creationism.
What I would like to point out though is that Holly, and others who write about these topics, should probably acknowledge that this has very little to do with Christianity, and a lot more to do with religion in general. Do Muslims accept homosexual behavior? (He asks, struggling to contain hysterical laughter). Do Jews? Hell, I’ve even met atheists who dislike homosexuality from the biological standpoint of it limiting genetic spread. The automatic assumption that if you don’t fully support the modern homosexual movement’s political agenda that it must be coming from a religious belief is kind of insulting.
You can see that logic when people start talking about 75% of the country being Christian, then automatically assuming that translates into an anti-gay agenda. What percentage of people in this country attend Church even once a week? In my experience I would guess it’s about 25% of the population. So, considering how badly gay marriage has been smacked down by voters all over the country, don’t you have to assume that a large portion of those voting against it aren’t even religious enough to attend church regularly? Honestly, I am appealing to those who want things to be different that they need to change their tactics – because implying all of your opponents are bigoted morons who blindly follow their pastor, or the pope, ect. is really not helping. It just further polarizes an already volatile issue, and pushes people deeper into their existing camps.
Justin,
Actually, Catholics are indeed Christians and none of the practices you mentioned “go against christianity” except for one which is actually a misconception and not actually true anyway. Catholics don’t pray to saints exactly, but rather praise them. When it comes to invoking them as such as for the characteristics which they are patrons of, that’s done more as an internal prayer seeking a similar strength of spirit as the saint showed (since both are human (except in the case of St. Michael)) or else to God himself to grant said strength of spirit. When it comes to the “apocrypha” that’s only according to the Luther at the time of the council of Trent. That is to say, a guy decided over 1500 years after the fact that certain books of the Bible which were already accepted at the time despite unknown authors should suddenly be left out (the deuterocanonical books). Mind you, there were indeed some early Christians who also rejected these books, but then again there were also many early Christians who rejected even the most popular gospels of the day (including Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) and included others that aren’t accepted anywhere today (many even lost to history). And these were even the people who were right there with Christ or, at the very least, even more near him chronologically than most of the books of the new testament. Finally, as for purgatory and and the sacrament of penance, both have been important Christian traditions for nearly 2000 years. True, biblical support for these two is tenuous at best, there’s also absolutely nothing in the bible that says one should deny beliefs that aren’t in the bible; merely that one should believe in those that are. As long as additional beliefs aren’t contradictory to beliefs from the bible, there’s nothing about them that could be considered un-Christian without, at the very least, being hypocritical. Overall, saying that Catholics aren’t Christian merely because of certain beliefs is about as foolish as saying that protestant sects are heretical due to being deviations from already established churches rather than being more original sects such as Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Arianism, and other early forms of Christianity.
Some good points have been made, and here I thought I was fighting a losing battle even saying anything. Disagreeing with them is one thing, but labeling them extremist? The things you listed in your response, Holly, just don’t seem that far out of the mainstream of the “fly-over states” (that make up most of the country). I mean, based on what you listed, any remotely conservative group is fringe — which goes along with what Scott already explained.
I would like to take this opportunity to officially acknowledge that I have a problem with fundamentalist interpretations of religion, particularly when calling for the oppression or elimination of certain groups of people based on factors that are out of their control. It doesn’t make a difference to me what the religion is.
FotF doesn’t have a lot of moderate positions — they’re even against church bingo — so when I said extremist I meant it more in the sense of having very black and white views.
First off, “that idiot” needs to die in a fire.
That said…gotta disagree on FotF being “extremist”. Now the Fred Phelps cult, for example, are certainly extremists. But not FotF…most of their views line up with what orthodox Christians (Catholics & evangelical Protestants) believe.
Most religions in the world, particularly Christianity and Islam–and AFAIK, Orthodox Judaism–have a black-and-white view of the world and man’s place in it. I understand that the stance taken by a lot of Christians, and FOtF in particular, toward gays is unpalatable to a lot of other people.
But the issue at hand here, I thought, was that a guy who works for a Christian organization has been caught doing something that was not only blatantly illegal, but morally, socially, emotionally and physically repugnant and loathsome. The gay thing here seems to be a red herring. Not that I’m accusing anyone here of trying to mislead anyone; I just don’t think it’s particularly relevant. Presumably, FOtF also stands against pedophilia. (NO, I am not classing homosexuality with pedophilia–just pointing out that FOtF is likely to be against one as much as the other.)
Baba Yaga and others bring up a good point. From what I’ve read and seen, Phelps and his little coven SERIOUSLY do not meet even the minimum description of Christian, but they’re definitely “fringe” and “extremist”. Preaching that God is “a God of hate” really is blasphemous. I have yet to hear them spout anything that isn’t downright horrifying and nauseating.
The Phelps cult is beyond disgusting and Fred Phelps is a sick, evil man. They are about as Christian as Osama bin Laden.
I would not call Phelps or his family Christian, either. I have had the pleasure of meeting them during a protest of my high school’s production of “the Laramie Project,” of which I was involved. They also harassed people at local churches (at one of the Catholic churches in town, they harassed the Latino/a little kids after the Spanish-speaking mass) for letting the gays be gay and celebrated the death of the Pope and his descent into hell. I cried at the time.
I can’t consider people Christian or moral people when they take joy in the belief the dead are rotting in hell. Believing in hell and getting joy out of the thought of other people suffering are different things in my head, and when you get to the point of being so hateful that eternal suffering on the part of others is celebratory, I can no longer consider them Christian. If I ever use faith to justify hate, than I have failed.
Also, Beige is right. Whether or not you coin Love Won Out or Focus on the Family as “extremist”, this man is a hypocrite in his pedophilia in light of the organization in which he is supposed to represent.
“There is much difference between many catholics and christians. Not that catholics can’t be christians, but lumping them all into the same group doesn’t necessarily work. Catholics also beleive in praying to saints, confession (to a priest), purgatory, the apocrypha, etc. Those are all beleifs/practices that go against christianity in a big way.”
Dude, I know people already said it, but I’m saying it again, Catholics ARE Christians. The Pope has St. Peter’s old job. If you believe that there’s only one God who’s composed of a Holy Trinity and Jesus is the son of God, you’re a Christian. There wouldn’t be any other Christians if they hadn’t had the Catholic Church to break away from (or broke away from a Protestant sect that broke away from the Catholic Church).
You don’t pray to saints like they’re God, you ask the saints to pray for you. And you’re confessing to God through a priest. How do Purgatory and the Apocrypha go against Christianity in a big way? As far as I know, they don’t say there’s no God or God isn’t the only god or Jesus wasn’t the son of God.
Having said that, those Westboro Baptist people are nuts.
Beige, you’re right. What it boils down to is despicable behavior from a guy who happens to work for an organization that champions certain views of morality. The gay thing is FotF’s most well-known position, but the chief way it’s relevant here is that the organization considers itself an expert on perversion, yet was unaware that one of its more public employees was an inarguable pervert.
Agreed. I would like to apologize for my hand in derailing the conversation. In matters like this you need to stay focused – a very sick man did a very sick thing, and should be harshly punished. Lets all just thank God that he was chatting with a cop instead of a real child, and they got this sicko off the street.
Ted Bundy used to volunteer for a suicide hotline. Does that mean that suicide hotlines are bad things and extreme organizations? One of the big questions that came out of that was, how did this guy fool the trained professionals he worked with? It’s either than the social workers weren’t all that smart of he was able to seem like a guy who didn’t kill people. Most people say that he was a very charming and engaging person. There are also no reports that he had “serial killer” tatooed on his forehead.
That idiot probably was able to keep his freaky deaky predilections under wraps at work the same way Ted was. Unless the corporate policy is to only hire pedophiles, I can’t really fault FotF. Again, I don’t like the organization but That Idiot doesn’t represent the agency as a hole. Or a whole. Paging Dr. Freud.
Did anyone read the affidavit? Um, ew. Guy knows how to party.
THANK YOU, TAL. Tal is my new hero, Deceiver commentators.
According to my neighbors, God hates heathen Catholics like me and my descent into Hell will be righteous. That’s part to blame for my rant about people delighting at the thought of Hell. It is so refreshing to hear you say what you did, I can’t even believe it.:)
“he was a very charming and engaging person”
Most sociopaths are. They are extremely charismatic.
Incidentally, I went to the FOtF website, I agree with Holly, well, I wouldn’t necessarily use the word “extremist” to describe the organization, but they seem pretty radical to me.
Cute limerick, Joan, but it’s pronounced o-vi-ey.
I am a Catholic and I am Christian. Most people who claim to be Christian do not act very Christian like. Example, I have had friends in college who were born again Christian and wanted me to be baptised again in their group to be repented. I declined and they then decided to exclude me from group outings, etc. In turn, I decided to walk away from them due to their hyprocracy. I do not treat people like that. A true Christian reaches out to people regardless of where they came from and who they are. A true Christian sees compassion and dedicates their life to helping others. I think Beige is right, God sees who is Christian and who is not. Just like not all Catholics are Christians based on their personal actions. I ahve been told by some of my Baptist friends that I am not trully a Christian yet I disagree based on my dedication to helping others and reaching out to those who are in need.
Holly–I see what you’re saying, and wasn’t trying to argue with you. I just didn’t want us all to veer into a rabbit chase.
Anni also makes a really good point: The whole idea is supposed to be to warn people about hell while contrasting it with heaven, NOT EVER to gloat because [you think] someone’s in hell. If people really understood more about what hell is supposed to be, we’d probably view it with horror and revulsion, not glee, no matter what our personal feelings about someone happen to be. Phelps and the other people y’all described apparently think they’re headed to heaven based on their own fantasticness, and that’s not exactly how it works.
And again with the double-posting, but I meant to say this earlier: Assuming Ovalle is, in fact, guilty, he needs to face the consequences–none of this Swaggartesque “I have offended yew, Lowerd” crap. If he did it, he needs to pay for his actions like everyone else.
It always chapped me severely when Karla Faye Tucker (IIRC, that was her name) protested her death sentence for murder because she’d been “born again”. Honey, if you’ve really bought a ticket, don’t balk at boarding the plane, m’kay? Christians don’t get a free pass on consequences.
Pedophiles are attracted to organizations that provides them with unfettered availability to children. Most people wear blinders when considering pedophiles in their “organization”. This is not limited to religious organizations. However, people are so willing to not see the obvious when it comes to their religious leaders pedophiles can not resist going to these organizations.
How many people know that Pious I (I believe but can get my books to confirm), when touring Poland found a little boy that he found so appealing he took him back to the vatican?
This is nothing new, and will continue to go on until people stop being sheep when participating in these kinds of organizations.
Phelps is a character in itself. His cult like to protest fallen soldiers funerals as well and that he praises IED’s. I hope there is a space just for him in hell. Opps, I guess that is not very Christian like.
“THANK YOU, TAL. Tal is my new hero, Deceiver commentators.”
Oh, wow, thanks, Anni! Who the heck are your neighbors, Jack Chick? I can’t even imagine living near people like that. (Then again, my closest neighbors are across the road hidden by loads of trees and before that my closest neighbors were cows. Plus I went to Catholic school from kindergarten through high school and my uncle’s a priest, so growing up most of the people I knew were Catholic.)
angry army wife: What a bunch of jerks. On another note, I didn’t know born-again Christians actually got baptized again. I suppose that makes sense given the “born again” thing, though. I know if you were baptized in some kind of Christian religion and you convert to Catholicism you don’t have to get baptized again.
My personal experience that the more fanatical you are about something usually means you are hiding something just as extreme.
In this case: extreme fundamental views on human behavior = sick-a$$-pervert
Well overall I think this sparked some good thought-provoking conversation, which seems hard to do sometimes with stories involving ManBearPig or the People for the Euthanastic Treatment of Animals. Well done everyone!
For Tal who wrote: “I didn’t know born-again Christians actually got baptized again.”
Yep. Fundie baptism isn’t a purification process for the soul, it’s public demonstration of personal commitment. This is why they don’t baptize babies. The penitent must have reached an age of understanding for the ceremony to have the desired impact upon their life.
It’s also not uncommon for born-agains to be periodically rebaptized. Some who were first baptized in childhood choose to do so again as adults in a symbolic rededication. I’ve also seen adults who return to the church (after years of non participation) rededicate themselves.
Also, fundie water isn’t blessed, it’s straight out of the tap. I’ve often wondered if converts to Catholicism or Orthodoxy need to be rebaptized because the water isn’t sanctified.
I was taught that baptism–which for us was immersion–was to wash away sin (not physically or literally), to declare commitment to Christ, and to receive the Holy Spirit. For reasons too personal and lengthy to declare here, I have been baptized three times, although it wasn’t b/c I thought one of them didn’t “take” or anything; it was more of a rededication or recommitment, as Minnow said.
That said, I’m wondering if I need to set up #4. Because lately, I suck at the Christian thing.
As you were.
Rule of man : the guy’s gotta pay for his crime. No problem with that.
Rule of God : if you repent and believe and trust Christ’s death was the all-sufficient atonement for all mankind’s sins, then you get to go to heaven – oh, and BTW, God reserves the right to know who is truly repentant and believing and trusting. How could God accept a guy like Juan ? I don’t know – I guess if Juan was a friend of yours, and this came as a shock, you’d feel sorry for your friend, but you’d be the only one, except for his mother. Knowing a bad guy makes the bad stuff they do a “little” less harsh – from the standpoint that instead of saying “you deserve to rot in hell” you’d say “what in the hell were thinking, man?”
I guess if God knows us, and who better than Him, I guess he’s on our side, pulling for us, until our dying breath. It’s always been kinda hard wrapping my head around this – the God plan, that if you’re really, really, sorry, and He knows if you are, then freedom’s price has been paid.
Ok, for those of you who got all mad at me about Catholics not being christians, please re-read what I wrote. I never said catholics weren’t christians, and sorry I was unclear with my terms christianity vs. protestantism, but I was trying to keep my speech as simple as possible.
I know this is way off the original story, and I really wasn’t trying to step into a whole religious/theological debate. Plus, I gotta stop cause I’m just going to keep responding when i really should be working!
There’s just too many factors to discuss, that would take way too long to make any of my points. I will say, though, that a true Christian, is a follower of Christ (that is how the term was created), and will not only live by what Jesus said, but will beleive what he said. Most of those 75% of “christians” in this country don’t even understand that basic principle.
well, here’s a different suggestion: maybe the whole thing is a cia (or name your own usgubmint alphabet group) front group and this dude is a ‘manchurian candidate’ type who’s been triggered to perform and it’s all designed to keep fear in the forefront of all the peeps little minds for continued government control. kinda like that beltway sniper thing in maryland a few years ago. technique is as old as the hills. we just have better technology to mold minds now.
Fortunately, Ovalle never even got the chance to put his hands on anybody. FOtF is gonna spin this somehow…
Nope Justin, your comments aren’t magically delicious in the reread.
From your original:
“[Saints, etc.] Those are all beleifs/practices that go against christianity in a big way.”
The main problem with your statement: You don’t get to set the definition.
Protestantism was founded in an effort to strip away the middleman from the God/Man relationship. You obviously value this simpler version. But in the eyes of Catholics, Protestants are the equivalent of Billy Bo Bob in a white speedo, eating peas with a knife at Queen Elizabeth’s table. Catholicism still respects the protocol behind how one approaches God.
Different does not mean wrong. And even if it did, you are the different one, not the Pope.
From your latest:
“I will say, though, that a true Christian, is a follower of Christ (that is how the term was created), and will not only live by what Jesus said, but will beleive what he said.”
Catholicism fits perfectly within these weak parameters you’ve set.
I say this in a completely non-mean way, Justin – no, it doesn’t work. Saying that “there is much difference between many catholics and christians” is like saying “there is much difference between many japanese and asians.”
Ovalle was a CIA operative that was planted to discredit FotF by the leftist government.
How y’all are missin’ that I have no idear, ‘specially from such a right wing blog!
Yeah, sorry Justin. Doesn’t work. Not that this is something I got mad about, but having grown up Catholic in a very Protestant community, I got some abuse for the distinction you made when I was a kid and I feel strongly about correcting inaccuracies in such statements despite the fact that I am now an atheist. No hard feelings, dude. It’s just that there isn’t that much of a difference, and the differences that exist only exist because people broke away from the Catholic church a few centuries ago, meaning that the Protestant religions created their own take on what was already in existence long before. While a lot of the issues involved in that split were issues regarding interpretation of that original message, if the original church had not been so corrupt and politically powerful, it may not have even happened in the same way, though I have no doubt that it would have happened eventually. I’m not going to say that this or that sect is any more true than the other because I don’t believe in Christianity whether it’s Baptist or Catholic and that’s a tired debate that I will leave to the believers that want to partake in it, but one should know what they are talking about before they make statements like the one you made.
@trent: So far as we know.
“The typical offender is male, begins molesting by age 15, engages in a variety of deviant behavior, and molests an average of 117 youngsters, most of whom do not report the offense.
-Dr. Gene Abel in a National Institute of Mental Health Study.”
Pulled that from http://www.yellodyno.com/html/child_molester_stats.html. Take it with a grain of salt; the problem with giving an average number of unreported cases is that there’s no way to confirm it, and people have a way of inflating the numbers- when I went looking, the stated average varied between the low sixties and mid hundreds. Even if the numbers are off by a factor of ten, though, chances are this isn’t Ovalle’s first time, and more easily confirmed numbers say that the police should start talking to any children he knows.
Back to the original topic:
I have to say that I do trust FOtF to review their staffing and backgroud check policies in the wake of this scandal far more thoroughly than your average broadcasting company.
Churches and service groups have undergone a dramatic change in the last decade. Gone are the days when just anyone can wander in and start teaching bible lessons to preschoolers. We visit quite a few churches in the course of a year and they’re all very security conscious nowadays. My own church isn’t the only one in the area to run background checks on all teachers and staff. It’s in part a response to the litigious nature of today’s society, but mostly because we’re more aware of child predators.
I’d also like to point out that Ovalle was working as a radio producer and a narrator. Neither job places one in direct contact with children. He sits in a studio with 3 other grown men and pushes buttons, he doesn’t measure boy’s inseams.
I like D—-’s theory the best.
Minnow–thanks for the “Friends” flashback!
ok.. let’s try this again.
The first thing I must say is that Catholicism IS much different than protestantism or maybe evangelicalism would be a better term for me to use. To say that they have the same beleifs would be a disservice to anyone that sacrificed their lives for either movement in the past, or anyone that holds to either view today.
Catholics do beleive in Jesus, and therefore can be considered christian, though there are some major theological differences between evangelicalism and catholicism, such as infant baptism vs. adult baptism, confessing to a preist vs. confessing directly to God, purgatory vs. going straight to heaven or hell, praying to saints (yes, you are praying to them to do something for you) vs. praying only to God, papal authority vs. biblical authority only, among many other traditions/practices/beleifs.
Those may not seem like huge differences to some, but to anyone concerned with theology, and a particular worldview, will see those as pretty big differences.
Ultimately, it comes down to individual beleifs, though, not religious structures/denominations. There will be catholics that go to heaven, and some will go to hell, and there will be evangelicals that go to heaven, and some that go to hell (if you beleive in that, otherwise you don’t need to worry about anything).
“Catholics…can be considered christian”
Justin, Catholics ARE Christian. Catholicism is just one of the (major) branches of Christian religion. Just like the Orthodox Christianity, Protestantism, etc. Here (the list of Chrisitan denominations):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
Justin: Catholics have their own variety of adult “baptism.” It’s called confirmation. I was baptized as a baby, confirmed as an adult. That is how I dedicated my adult life to Christ.
“…praying to saints (yes, you are praying to them to do something for you)”
No, no, no. You don’t get to tell people what their religion does or believes. I’ve been regarding you as somebody who’s either unaware or not expressing himself very well, but this is crossing a line.
Let me see if I can explain this. You know how living people ask other living people to pray for them? You want them to pray for you, but you don’t think they have the power that God has. That’s why in the Hail Mary it’s “pray for us sinners,” not “work your goddess-powers and save us sinners.” Also, confessing to a priest does not mean the priest is the one with the power to forgive your sins. God is the one with the power to forgive your sins.
Nobody’s saying there aren’t differences between Catholicism and various Protestant religions. The thing people objected to was acting as though Catholics aren’t Christians. I don’t think you’re a bad guy or anything, but telling people what they believe is not cool.
Just to add to what Tal said, when one addresses a saint, it is in the name of Jesus, or, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. A saint is not a demi god. They are people who led exemplary lives and are recognized by the church for doing so.
I always saw the confession thing–which we fulfill on a pretty much individual and mutual basis–as simply a part of repentance. In our church, we’re all considered “priests” and “saints”, not that we have icons or are canonized or anything. It’s small-P “priest” and small-S “saint”. I just fail to act like either, most of the time.
Okay, because this has been lurking in my undies like a cockle-burr all day:
Today’s spelling lesson will cover the word belief.
B
E
L
I
E
F
We be the lie f! Not We be lei the effin wrong way.
@ Eve
I thought it was pronounced o-va-ye. I <3 Joan’s limericks. I couldn’t write a limerick to save my life. Let me see if I can write a haiku:
in jailhouse shower
all of the inmates wait ’till
Ovalle drops the soap
Beige, you are right about the repentance bit, and funnily enough, confession is one of the many reasons I was kicked out of Catholic school when I was 7. I used to ask far too many uncomfortable questions. For all that I am a raging non believer, I am still good friends with one of the priests from that school/church, and we had a big discussion about confession at my cousin’s wedding reception. While its origins are tangled up in church power and having someone trusted to also pray for your sins, he said that it is also meant to be a way for a person to repent privately with the comfort of knowing that they got something off their chest. Telling someone about something you are ashamed of is very powerful in relieving guilt and movinig on to working on being a better person. I don’t see a problem with that if it actually helps people and the priest keeps your secrets, which he is obligated to do.
Despite my seriously fundie upbringing, the act of Catholic confession has always made a lot of sense to me.
Think about it, when a Protestant sends up a prayer of contrition, it’s just him, God, and the fly on the wall who hears the telephone call.
But when you air your dirty laundry in front of an authority figure like a priest, there’s a higher standard of repentance to live up to. And when that priest hears that you’ve been soiling your duds again, he gets to send you a hex eye while you’re sitting in the pew for mass.
It’s all about accountability. It’s built into Catholicism. Protestants can sooooo easily move the goal posts with an “I didn’t really mean to never, ever poison my husband again. I just meant not to do it quite so frequently.”
Which is exactly why so many fundies start up prayer groups. They don’t realize it, but they’re recreating a Catholic confessional booth, minus the 12 Hail Marys.
Minnow, I think you’re right about confession, but you confess anonymously, right? That way, you confess *all* your sins (not just the second-degree ones) and the priest doesn’t give you stinkeye during Mass. Right? Maybe?
Beige, re: your comment at #56 about needing baptism #4, that’s one reason our church has baptisms during the service on Sundays – we all get to renew our baptismal vows and our commitment to Christ. Well, that, and the babies are wicked cute.
It’s funny when the left disagrees with someone, they name-call and make any accusation whether based in fiction or reality. Maybe Holly Won’t should actually investigate an organization before making ridiculous claims about them. But then again, that would require the use of critical thinking, and entering the “big people” world of debating in the arena of ideas. We’ve seen an example of a reporterette hoping to impress by creating news, rather than reporting on it truthfully – can you say Dan Rather.
You got it wrong on Focus on the Family, Holly and you know it. You impune an organization over the actions of 1 employee – that’s fair. So why don’t know pick a city, pick a crime that’s happened there, and impune the whole city…sorry Holly, just using your warped logic.
And for the “hypocite” callers – how would you define someone who would make such accusations publicly, without having any information about the situation, except what they wish it was based on their politics – hypocrite? maybe add knee-jerk in front and you would have it.
The left is getting boring – because you don’t even have to guess at their responses – their playbook is so small, kind of like their ideas and their minds – please try being original and engage your minds because your slogans and pat response are old.